Torque OBD reader shows HV battery charging at 14kw

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by BrokenWrench, Oct 23, 2019.

  1. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    While it might seem like the mounting bolts under the modules are not needed and 4 clamping bars are enough. Under high temps when battery is at its limits that pack is going turn into an accordion on you... I'm sure other battery rebuilders on here will agree.. There's actually a thread on Prius chat about it here: BULGED BATTERY MODULES? NEVER SEEN THAT BEFORE | PriusChat

    And here's a pic @ChapmanF posted in that thread of what your not bolted down idea might end up looking like: 3348816090_3ef353b20b.jpg
     
  2. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    I'm going to disagree with the importance of the mounting bolts to prevent swelling. All those pictures of ridiculously swollen packs are the result of massive overcharging and no cooling. It's the bars and end plates that resist swelling. The bottom mounting bolts are just not in the proper location to resist the force of swelling.
     
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  3. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    We've already had this conversation in a different thread... Here's some basic information to explain why it's really bad advice to disagree with the value of bolting a pack down and how specifically it will ruin a pack:

     
  4. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Also here's a direct experience I had:

    The 4 rods are designed to prevent outwards pressure on both ends and in extreme cases they don't even do that very well (see pics below). What the four rods aren't designed for is the center of pack bending in half, which is why there's 28 bolts holding the modules in place. If this wasn't structurally needed in high temps there would be no need to have a chassis to bolt the pack securely to...

    In the case of my pictures below the pack was brought up to a hot lava-like liquid because the pack had a cell failure and the car kept shutting everything down and the driver kept resetting everything by disconnecting the 12v to get home and it's middle of Summer during a heatwave and it's over 100 degrees out and the car is then shut down in full sun with windows rolled up before cooling fan had a chance to exhaust all the heat.

    It literally heated the thick plastic end caps up near their melting point and gravity and expansive outward pressure at the bottom of the modules bowed out to fill in the space the overheated failing plastic end caps made.

    You have to take these very real types of failures serious and keep everything bolted down. Had this pack not been bolted down it would of bent upwards like an accordion and would of been irreparable. On this particular pack I replaced the bad module #13, the end caps and the two bent modules #1 & #28 on the ends. The bent module damage went six deep / 12 modules total and I snapped a few bolts trying to remount the warped modules to the chassis again.

    Fortunately, just replacing the end caps and end modules caused the 10 remaining modules to fully re-flatten out under normal operating hot weather temperatures thanks to the forces of the rods and the chassis bolts. Additionally, there was no notable long term damage to module functionality.
     
  5. BrokenWrench

    BrokenWrench Junior Member

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    20191214_110640.jpg 20191214_110657.jpg 20191214_110845.jpg 20191214_111232.jpg Well I'll certainly avoid unhooking the 12 volt multiple times to reset the code - but for now I let the mounting bolt issue drop as I am still on the electrical side of trouble shooting.

    Here is what is currently going on:

    I have reassembled the battery and am doing the HV leak/short test and come up with 5 volts – oddly if I hook up two meters the voltage is split, and with 3 meters the 5 volts is divided by 3.

    If I take the same 3 meters and hook to a good 12 volt battery - all at the same time all 3 show 12 volts as I would expect.

    Odd……….should I reinstall this HV battery and see what happens or do I have more trouble shooting to do?
     
  6. BrokenWrench

    BrokenWrench Junior Member

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    I've left one meter on for several hours and now am down to .8 volts - maybe I'll let it sit overnight and see where it ends up.
     
  7. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Your photos don't show the circuit you're making to get those numbers? I can see one red attached to the chassis and what about the others? None of this makes any sense? You still seem to be associating voltage leaks and electrolyte leaks as the same thing?

    Never once in all the times I've worked on packs for years have I ever looked for voltage leaks like this, nor have I ever once read on here an expert suggesting to do this? Either the modules are load tested and discharge tested correctly or they are not. Electrolyte leaks out of cracks, but that's not a viable circuit that creates voltage. I've never once on here read of voltage leaking out of cracks. If someone has a link to any post on here regarding a diagnosis like that, or someone who regularly tests for that I'd like to read all of it and learn as much as possible. So please post it! If no one has a link to that, then I rest my case, my point has been proven.

    What's more I have direct experience with your gear and It's extremely vulnerable to anomalous readings... It may well have proven with a 12v that the meters are ok with a solid current, but those are junk meters you get for free from Harbor Freight with a coupon.

    I built my first diagnostic rig with those meters and quickly realized that they are total garbage and constantly give false readings, lose calibration and the insides of them quickly break if you bump the plugs. You don't have to spend alot of money on this, these ones for about $6 on ebay work much better. It's what I use, at least until my next upgrade: DT 830B LCD Voltmeter Ammeter Ohm Digital Multimeter Battery & Leads Electric 660960088069 | eBay
     
    #67 PriusCamper, Dec 14, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
  8. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Mounting threads are isolated in plastic, I've pulled them out before. The are not part of any circuit, they are solely mounting the module to the chassis. Again that's your cheap volt meter giving you anomalous readings.
     
  9. BrokenWrench

    BrokenWrench Junior Member

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    see the video in the link below - I was at 115 volts before I pulled the battery.

    Due to the long thread - it is the HV leak code POAA6 that I am working to cure.



     
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  10. BrokenWrench

    BrokenWrench Junior Member

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    Camper,

    Thanks for the input - those meters are not Cheap ! - They are Free : )

    I know the threads are mounted in plastic and are not supposed to be part of any circuit. I, however, appear to have the "special" units that crack in such a way that the inserts have become part of a circuit that they were not previously a party too.

    But that's not what I'm testing here with the photos of the meters in the previous post. I'm testing in the same manner as the video and believe I have cured the HV leak as this same test before was showing 115 volts that did not bleed down at all.

    Although, I'm not positive it's cured as all these cells are from 2006 and if one fails maybe the others are just waiting........
     
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  11. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    The origin of this picture is from this thread PHEV mod under way, Bristol, UK. | PriusChat in post number 177. Here is what that pack looked like before the mishap, from post # 116

    [​IMG]

    And what it looked like in the car from post #121 at 10:20 in the video.


    This pack had all the bottom mounting bolts installed when in blew up from over charging. That makes it a very poor example of what can happen or will happen to a pack with the bottom bolts left out. The failure point was the plastic end cap. The mounting bolts for the compression rods ripped out of the end cap allowing the modules to expand and bend.

    From the thread BULGED BATTERY MODULES? NEVER SEEN THAT BEFORE | PriusChat here a shot from Dxta showing another battery that had the end cap ripped apart.

    [​IMG]

    This shot shows the modules still bolted to the frame.
    [​IMG]


    Nikki installed another battery in her plug in conversion and managed to blow that up also. From post number #323

    [​IMG]

    At first glance that might look like proof of the need to install the bottom mounting bolts. Note that the failure point was the plastic end cap just like the other examples.

    This is what the pack looked like before the failure. The modules were bolted to an aluminum angle iron.

    [​IMG]


    All of these packs had the bottom bolts installed and failed because of massive overcharging with out cooling. They are not examples of what will happen if a DIY'er leaves out the bottom mounting bolts while working on his pack.

    So, If a DIY'er wants to leave out the bottom bolts while working on his own battery it's just not a big concern.

    For my customers packs all bolts get installed to factory specs.
     
  12. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    The silicone and insulation is at best a band aid that will quickly fail. It's also possible that leaker is a module that you did not attempt to seal.

    When the leak returns take several voltage readings between the case and different points along the buss bars. This will help pinpoint the source.

    For a good explanation of the voltage leak detection circuit read this thread.

    HV battery isolation question. | PriusChat
     
  13. BrokenWrench

    BrokenWrench Junior Member

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    Thanks, I'll read the thread above. I've installed the battery but without reinstalling all the cars interior trim. I've run the car for several hours in my large backyard and the code has not returned ................. yet...........and as you say - I fully expect it to return at some point but since I couldn't track down the culprit - I'll put it back on the road and wait for it to resurface.

    Another, point of interest is there is some water collecting in the lower, rear, left trunk area. It's rain and road water and does create a very humid and moist environment in the battery area and that also can't be good. I'll leave the trim out and see it I can sort that out as well.

    Now that the holidays are over - I'll put the car back on the road before too long and see how it goes. It's all an experiment and learning process and not an urgent matter.

    With around 235,000 miles on the car it's not worth a lot of money, so I don't want to sink a lot of cash into this one but would rather buy a low mileage 2nd or 3rd generation at some point for long road trips.

    I am impressed that all 28 cells in this HV battery are from 2006 with the same date codes thus appearing to be all original.

    I'll update this post as time goes on.
     
  14. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    The water build up in 12v battery well is a known problem with roof seams leaking... I fixed mine simply by cleaning all the debris building up under the right black roof trim strip that easily pops up. Also there's a rubber drain plug under the 12v battery... Pull that out to insure water drains rather than fills up. Most people don't have any problem with marinating their 12v in a puddle of rain water, but it's not the right way to cook your dinner.
     
    #74 PriusCamper, Dec 31, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2019
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  15. BrokenWrench

    BrokenWrench Junior Member

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    The water puddle I have is on the side without the 12 volt battery .......... I better check under the 12 volt too.
     
  16. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    Drill a small hole at the low point. It's an old car.;)
     
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