Toyota and Ford teeming up to build hybrid system

The FE of EcoBoost engines could be improved substantially provided the standard DFI compression ratio of 12-14:1 were used. But no, instead Ford wanted to sell HP to all the minority players.

So instead of improved FE 98% of the time, FE is sacrificed in favor of that ~2% on-boost time that the "boy-racers" MUST have.

 

Yes, absolutely...

That is unless Ford adopts (or licenses) the Toyota E-VVTi technique. The RXh's V6 now runs in Atkinson cycle mode only at higher throttle openings. At low throttle openings there is no delayed intake valve closing so the V6 runs in base Otto mode, the base/native 13:1 compression ratio is also the effective CR in Otto mode.

These days with gas prices rising it seems patently foolish, FUELISH, to have a DFI engine and not take advantage of the maximum FE that could be attained, attained 98% of the time, via the standard DFI base/native compression ratio of 12:1, even 14:1 in some cases.

And with E-VVT-i Ford would have the ability to shift the 12-14:1 base/native, Otto mode, non-boost compression ratio to an effective ratio of ~10:1 to accommodate intercooled boost pressure at the rare (<1% for the general populace) times of need.

 

First, do you have a link for this E-VVTi? Lexus/Toyotas can have VVTi, but I can't find anything on an E-VVTi on their sites.

Everybody has access to variable valve timing. It's not clear if Ford used it in the ecoboost. If not, then there is likely sound technical an/or economical reasons for not including it. There is already a price premium for the turbos and direct injection.

These are also Fords. If the ecoboost required anything but regular fuel, people would be crying bloody foul. They did for the Volt and Smart fortwo. 87 octane is crap by the way. We will never see a DI engine at full potential in wide use here while it is still around.

According to fueleconomy.gov, the Lexus RX uses premium gas.

Finally, we are the minority. Power is still a major seller. Ford introduced the 3.5 first because they can sell them at a higher margin. Which allows them recoup their R&D costs on the ecoboost line quicker and also gives them capitol for starting up the less profitable lines.

 

That is incorrect. Ford received no technical assistance from Toyota as they developed their hybrid technology independently. They obtained licenses from Toyota after realizing some aspects were similar to Toyota patents.

 

Build a truck in America that can't tow and see how far your company gets.

When these engines start appearing in smaller cars they will be more geared towards economy and they will do it well.

Toyota is not the be-all end all of economy and do not automatically do things better. If they did they wouldn't have to team up with Ford now would they?

Ford will soon have the C-max hybrids and the Focus EV and a new Fusion hybrid, after that they will have the ecoboost Fiesta and maybe a hybrid Focus too. On top of that they actually have ICE only cars that get incredible fuel economy right now.

To act like they don't care about fuel economy is like acting like Toyota only cares about it...they have their guzzlers too.

 

My RX has NEVER been fueled with anything but regular.

 

You can believe what you wish, obviously, but the truth of the matter is that Ford had not a clue about the uniqueness of the PSD/CVT concept (a US invention) until Toyota had it well along in development.

 

The difference is that Toyota doesn't market their gas-guzzlers as "ECO" friendly.

Where, pray tell me, is Toyota's equivalent to the over-powered gas guzzling Mustang, Chevys Camero, Dodge's Charger.

 

+1

The eco-boost in the F150 is all about torque. It also will dump fuel when pushed, but should be much more efficient than the V8s in normal driving. When pushed, that low rev torque means that it must dump extra fuel to avoid detonation. Now the other way to add that torque is an electric motor, and a battery big enough to add extra power. That will allow something like a hybrid miller cycle 4 or 6 to pull like the big v8 with much better mileage. It would be really cool if an F150 could get 30 in the city cycle.

 

there is nothing to be argued here, Ford purchased both batteries and PSD's from Toyota owned companies

 

someone mentioned e vvti that's basically the hybrid system...

as for the person who mentioned towing.. the rx and such tow.. they do it very well.. hell.. the prius tows pretty well and it's designed not to tow.

i don't think they'll have a problem making a truck hybrid at this point.. it just needs to be done.

 

Ford pushed their suppliers from the states to overseas. Ford is having trouble getting components. Toyota is close to their suppliers per basic late 20th century quality principles. Ford knows this and can't turn back at least a couple of decades of mistakes. So they team up with Toyota. Any holes in my logic?

 

Its just the name for their variable valve timing. THS is the hybrid system.

RX hybrid system is pretty expensive to the end customers and is FWD. Toyota and Ford, I'm sure are shooting for a RWD/AWD system that is less expensive to implement and rugged like their working trucks. Cooperating is a good thing. They may be able to get supplier prices down and design accomplished faster than if they needed to do this each on their own.

Yep. And GM has already done it in an expensive way. Let's hope this gets a bigger market share.

Yes, a hole so big you can drive a truck through it. Both are global manufacturers with global suppliers. The Toyota Texas truck plant was slowed down because of problems getting parts from Japanese suppliers. This deal is about sharing development costs for new product that they both will need to meet the post 2016 epa regulations. In other words long term, and common hybrid design should allow them to reduce parts costs until volumes come up.

 

+1 Thread title spelling FAIL.

 

What about the Lexus 600h? It is marketed as V12 power with V8 economy. That is all Ford has done. The 3.5 ecoboost gives V8 power for V6 economy. The 6L V8 it equals or surpasses in performance is a fuel sucking pig.

The 2.0 ecoboost is just starting to be used in NA models. Cars equipped with V6s at base. We can call whether the ecoboost is nothing but a guzzler then.

So Ford changed the name, so what? It has always been possible to use a turbo for fuel economy instead of power. There just has never been a demand for it until now. Companies that don't change with the markets die. Ford is just being business astute. They are also working towards keeping their hybrid components in house.

I am well aware that modern premium fueled engines don't actually require it. I have pointed that out several times here. It hasn't changed the fact that the mention of premium fuel use for a car, specially an everyman model or brand, will kill some sales.

The RX is only rated to tow with the AWD system. The 3500# it and the HyHi are rated for is plenty for most people, but it is low for a, um, 'real' truck of their size. The Ranger, with its decades old design, can be rated to tow 3 tons. Rear wheel drive, and some will say a solid axle, is a must for a work truck that is expected to haul or tow.

I'd say, as a guess, the PSD is the weak link for a work vehicle. Any HSD vehicle with an official tow rating has an MG3 on the rear axle that likely bears the brunt of starting the trailer moving.

I know many have towed with a Prius. I have seen plenty of motorcycles with trailers. Once saw kid on a bike, the pedal type, towing a trailer loaded with a mower and trimmer. Using common sense you can probably tow with any vehicle. But if things go south while towing with Prius, you'll be left holding the bag. Not just from Toyota, but also the insurance company.

 

....

 

You're right, I have seen the error of my ways. This must be a US plot to bring down Toyota.

Funny how the Tundra towing capacity is 5000-11000 LESS than the Ford and fuel economy is 13-16mpg city and 17-20hwy.

Gas guzzling Toyota for shame.

 

Just what percentage of the US automotive buying public, even PU buyers, gives a rat's axx about towing capacity...?

 

Really? Ford electric trucks? RWD? Which is important, and why. Am I missing something?


[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Transit"]Ford Transit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

And THIS Ford EV has been out for about a year now:


Is the 'big deal' that the current Ford Transent isn't RWD? ... or something else.

.

 

Toyota did market it though.

What car models can I buy now with a DI V6?

I know they aren't liked here, and I also have general low opinion of them, but not everyone at GM is a total idiot. In most trims, including the ECO, the Cruze is equipped with a 1.4L turbo. That and a six speed transmission are main reasons for its fuel economy.

When implemented for economy, a turbo can allow engine downsizing. Which is a technique Toyota uses in Prius. You size the engine for 80% of the cars needs and use the turbo for 20% when passing and such.

Where's the proof for this? Ford started working on their hybrid system with the Supercar and similiar programs. There was legal entanglements that meant they had to do some work with Toyota.

Regardless, Ford is moving production of those components in house because they are tired of getting Toyota's scraps from the suppliers.

Yes. They are real simple, which is why they over took steam despite a power disadvantage. I won't be surprised if this Ford/Toyota venture produces a hybrid with a heavier serial mode.