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Featured Toyota and Kenworth Team up to Create a Fuel Cell Regional Semi

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by drash, May 15, 2024.

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  1. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Toyota and Kenworth are making a 450 mile (724 km) range fuel cell Semi that can haul 82,000 lbs (37,195 kg).
    Toyota supersizes battery in fuel-cell semi, teases formula for pickups
    Yeah we've talked about something like this before:
    Toyota's New Bet on Hydrogen | PriusChat

    This is slightly different in that in addition to the 58.8 kg of hydrogen, it has a buffer Lithium NCA battery of 200 kWh. So what's the DCFC speed? Just what the fuel cell is capable of, because there is no DCFC or charge port of any kind. As many of us know the fuel cell's main weakness is slower dynamic reaction to power requests than batteries. The 200 kWh battery supplies a buffer for the fuel cell. Combine the large truck and payload going downhill along with 310 kW motors the battery pack can absorb some serious regeneration.
    Toy-Kenworth-fcev-semi.jpg
    Toyota is targeting 300 miles (483 km) no matter the terrain. Providing a continuous 415 hp this is about equal to what most modern diesel engines provide. For instance a Mack MP®7 provides between 325 to 425 HP (242 to 317 kW) from its 11L displacement.

    So how about the elephant in the room - infrastructure. Nikola is building out HYLA fuel stations mainly at ports and large truck stops which it will use to power its Nikola Tre semi packing 200 kW of fuel cell power and 160 kWh buffer battery. Nikola hopes to create 60 HYLA fuel stations by 2026. For hydrogen's sake if you're going to scale the technology, providing 50 kg of hydrogen instead of 3 for each customer is the best way forward. At 200 kWh it also pushes Toyota to create more batteries.

    Too bad they took over the sleeper with the fuel tanks. That fuel cell would put out some serious heat for cold overnight stays.
     
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  2. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    So .... doing a little back o' the napkin math here;

    Even a couple years ago hydrogen might easily cost you $15 per kg.

    How Much Does a Gallon of Hydrogen Fuel Cost? Petro Online.

    Let's never mind that most hydrogen is made from fossil fuels because that's the cheapest way to go.

    Then factor for vehicle range;

    1kg of hydrogen gets a Toyota Mirai sized car about 60 miles.

    https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/hydrogens-role-transportation#:~:text=One%20kg%20of%20hydrogen%20contains,on%20a%20gallon%20of%20gasoline.

    A loaded tractor trailer rig might travel 1/30th the distance that the Mirai travels on 1kg of hydrogen. (2 miles)

    A diesel rig may travel 2 miles on just 4 or $5 of fuel (½ to ⅓ that of hydrogen)

    Great idea Toyota
    .
     
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  3. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

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    Hill, your maths are good, but "the media" will never report that side of the hydrogen equation, be it for trucks, trains, planes or automobiles. Sadly.
     
  4. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    Toyota has kept their mouth shut and continues to make great progress in an area that is being ignored in the USA.

    The work they are doing with no fanfare in the trucking industry to help out decreasing emissions and solving trucking issues with alternative technology is admirable.

    No wonder they are currently experiencing such business and financial success in their ventures.
     
  5. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Toyota's fetish with hydrogen is because they have a full-on NIMBY complex going on. With Australian Brown coal as their stock fuel source for hydrogen - toyo doesn't have to be concerned w/ scrubbing the coal ash filth from their own backyard. Then they get to pretend hydrogen is clean. The Apex of hypocrisy.
    But who gives a crap as long as Toyota makes money .... right?
    .
     
  6. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    The beauty of Toyota's scheme is that when there is a Mercury Laden coal ash disaster, like when containment dams break - Toyota's hands are washed of it. Not so much the environment, though. Tough luck (suckers) Aussies . . . .

    Screenshot_2024-05-16-08-19-04-76_680d03679600f7af0b4c700c6b270fe7.jpg
    .
     
    #7 hill, May 16, 2024
    Last edited: May 16, 2024
  7. Zeromus

    Zeromus Member

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    Hydrogen is interesting but I still don't know if it will be sustainable long term as a real option.

    I think the logic is that traditional fuel stations are probably easier to convert, and traditional fuel companies might be more willing to adjust to an alternative fuel vs going all in on electricity transition?

    Maybe fuel cell tech for trucking could be a good last leg solution, but diesel trucks still have way more range and are still significantly cheaper to operate for longer distances. Then again, trains are even more fuel efficient on a per mile basis than a bunch of semi's too.

    In the end, I see all of these EV trucks, fuel cell trucks, and even diesel generator for on board batteries trucks as early efforts to find a solution and we'll have to get through these early efforts to find something that really will work later.
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I look forward to the hydrogen fuel cell advocates paying for the hydrogen:
    • Steam generation from methane CH{4} + 2H{2}O - gives one mole of CO{2} and four moles of H{2} and a lot of waste heat.
    • Electrolysis of H{2}0 + 237 kW - give one mole of H{2}, one half mole of O{2}, and ~47 kW of waste heat.
    • The H{2} has to be compressed and transported to point of sale.
    • The vehicle has to drive to the point of sale.
    In contrast, I prefer to charge my car parked while I'm at home, free at some merchants and motels, or even at fast DC chargers like SuperChargers.

    Bob Wilson
     
  9. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Almo$t forgot. The 10,000 P$I compre$$or maintenance

    $$
     
  10. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Let me correct that, toyota has a strong pac and their hydrogen efforts are heavily subsidized by governments of Japan, US, Australia, Saudi Arabia, and California. So far their vehicles have come far short of promises. This article is about the follow on from a project of 10 short haul hydrogen trucks for Ports in California. The modified design with a much larger battery is an improvement as battery prices have dropped and the larger buffer was needed. The strange part from the article is that they are not allowing users to charge the battery from the grid. Toyota explained that the mirai was not a phev fcv because they wanted to create demand for hydrogen. If the venture is going to be sucessful they will need to add sockets for charging. 200 kwh of battery takes about 230 kwh of energy from the grid, or about 450 kwh of energy of hydrogen plus the power to compress and dispense it.

    There was a lot of bragging and promises when the pilot program was launched but the numbers can't be great otherwise they would be bragging about them, and wouldn't be talking about this improved design.

    Only time will tell if this will pay off for toyota or the governments subsidizing hydrogen. It could happen, but if its going to be clean hydrogen then it simply makes sense to be able to charge the big battery with grid electricity.

    The mirai was a failure. The fuel cell truck market is not going to significantly contribute to toyota's profitability. I hope toyota finds some use for the R&D.

    Toyota's profitability right now has to do with there gasoline powered vehicles. I think Toyota and others will continue with fuel cell semi trucks as long as governments will subsidize the R&D and commercialization. I can see this working for some medium haul operations on heavily traveled routes. The BEV semi and PHEV diesel semi seem to handle the short haul and medium haul better today, but who knows if there will be some hydrogen miracles in the future? Hydrogen seems extremely bad for long haul, maybe worse than Bev.
     
  11. Zeromus

    Zeromus Member

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    That's how I see it. Its worth exploring with R&D and maybe there's a niche implementation or the research provides insights into something else that ends up being used in the future. Nothing wrong, IMO, with subsidized research to explore different options on reducing GHG emissions from the commercial transport space in the long term. If hydrogen doesn't work for this maybe there's a different application, or maybe its proved definitively to be a bad idea despite best efforts and R&D transitions more strongly to alternatives knowing that Hydrogen really truly isn't an option. Mirai and other attempts at consumer oriented hydrogen/fuel cell efforts probably means greater overall focus on EVs for example.
     
  12. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Actually if you read the article, the intended targets are for a fully loaded rig. 450 miles on 58.8 kg is about 7.7 miles/kg (12.3 km/kg) and the minimum target is 300 miles on the same 58.8 kg or 5.1 miles/kg (8.2 km/kg). I'm assuming the entire fill up of hydrogen is used, but practically I'd guess the empty light comes on when the tanks hit 20 bar.
     
    #13 drash, May 17, 2024
    Last edited: May 17, 2024
  13. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Ah .... yes .... LARGE hydrogen users. Using large amounts of hydrogen, in large vehicles. What is it they say about history? The only thing we learn from history is we learn nothing from history? Is it soo bad - that a municipality would scuttle hydrogen for diesel?

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-transit-s-90m-hydrogen-bus-fleet-to-be-sold-off-converted-to-diesel-1.2861060

    Nothing intrinsically wrong with being progressive, but it's awful easy to waste public money. After trying large format hydrogen Canada quickly learned what a money suck it truly is. Not just obscene fuel Reformation costs, but the maintenance requiring so much more. Time to learn lessons over again one supposes? On the other hand - there are several municipalities that have already found large format batteries in city transit works to work wonderfully.
    But who knows .... maybe in 10 years? That's been the promise every 10 years - since the 1970's.

    Let the flowery articles continue !

    .
     
    #15 hill, May 19, 2024
    Last edited: May 19, 2024
  14. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    Hydrogen Strategy for Canada: Progress Report
    April 2024
    "Across Canada, interest in low-carbon hydrogen is booming. Approximately 80 low-carbon hydrogen production projects have been announced, representing an expression of interest of over $100 billion in potential investment dedicated to building out this clean energy opportunity.

    Pilot projects are underway, showcasing Canadian ingenuity and demonstrating how hydrogen can help fuel our trucks, buses, and trains, help decarbonize our industries, or help heat our homes and businesses.

    Hydrogen hubs are forming, such as in Edmonton, Vancouver and Southern Ontario, to match low-carbon hydrogen supply with demand.

    The Honourable Jonathan Wilkinson
    Minister of Energy and Natural Resources of Canada"
     
  15. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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  16. Mr.Vanvandenburg

    Mr.Vanvandenburg Senior Member

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    What about the fact now we drive our cars directly behind other’s tail pipe exhaust. They put the tail pipe exhaust in the back so the driver doesn’t get gassed. The car behind gets gassed. Does anyone think that’s healthy? I think that is the elephant in the room.
     
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  17. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    • If only we could take all the plastic waste and pile it up in the back yards of those who own or direct the plastic industry.
    • If only we could take all the people priced out of homes and put them in the back yards of NIMBY's and corporative property investors, or take those workers and build an affordable state for them and get them out of the places that don't want to let them have an affordable place to live and see what people do when their community doesn't have hardly any workers left in it.
    • If only we could take all the tail pipe emissions and pipe them into the back yards of those who develop the internal combustion automotive industry.