Featured Toyota Announces New Powertrain Units Based on TNGA

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bhtooefr, Feb 26, 2018.

  1. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    Toyota Announces New Powertrain Units Based on TNGA | CORPORATE | TOYOTA Global Newsroom





    Hat tip to @GasperG for mentioning this in another thread.
     
  2. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    So, as discussed here, this is almost certainly destined for the Lexus UX 250h.

    Interestingly, this thing's MG2 is rated at 80 kW, where the P610 is rated at 53 kW, and the P710 is rated at 88 kW. My guess is that this hybrid system will be designated P711, as it's likely only a slight variation on the P710.

    They also don't report what the new E-Four unit's actual power output is, just that it's 1.3x the torque of the old unit (which was used in the RXh/HiHy and RAV4h, as well as some stuff like the Estima Hybrid overseas), and less loss. The old unit was 50 kW to the rear wheels.

    As far as the engines, looks like 143 hp for the new hybrid engine, so I'd expect system horsepower to be in the 160 hp ballpark - right between the 2ZR-FXE+P610 and the A25A-FXS+P710.
     
    #2 bhtooefr, Feb 26, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
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  3. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    Oh that's what this is for.

    Toyota at the 2018 Geneva International Motor Show

    [​IMG]

    (I mean, I'm sure it's also for the UX 250h, but yeah.)
     
  4. GasperG

    GasperG Senior Member

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    I was told by off road instructor that RAV4 electric rear drive is more or less useless when it comes to true off-roading, on a steep incline, when only rear wheel have good grip, they just won't move. It may be that the starting torque is to low, but i doubt 1.3x will make a big difference.
     
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  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    My interest is to see the one-way, flywheel clutch. That has really made the Prime a nice car because it allows MG1 and MG2 to work as a single unit at low speeds. It would be great if Toyota has adopted a minimum launch to 60 mph (96 kph) of 8 seconds.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  6. GasperG

    GasperG Senior Member

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    Yeah, no word about any new PHEV model is worrying. A dedicated European manufactured Auris PHEV with €4,500 government grant in my country would be a steal.
     
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  7. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    Keep in mind that we are talking about the company that markets their European hybrids as not being able to be plugged in.



    That said, this is buried in their press material:

     
  8. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    Sigh, a 2 liter engine would have done wonders for the perception of the Prius v.

    it does not say the Hybrid specific engine has Direct Injection, if it did that would greatly reduce the fluid in the intake manifold.
     
  9. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    It does, but how would it prevent that?

    First off, these engines aren't solely direct injection - they use both port and direct injection at low to moderate load, for improved emissions and NVH, as well as cleaning off the intake valves (the D-4S motors avoid the problems that most direct injection engines have with intake port and valve deposits).

    Second, how would port injection cause that? Gasoline is quite volatile, so even if it would pool in the manifold (quite unlikely - the injector is spraying into the port, and it should stay vaporized when it gets pushed out of the cylinder and sucked into the next cylinder).

    AFAIK, that particular problem is water and oil vapors from the EGR and PCV condensing, not fuel.
     
  10. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    Any confirmation on dual (port+direct) injection on this 2.0?
    1.8 4Gen Prius powertrain is TNGA and is PFI-only.
     
  11. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    In an Atkinson cycle engine, as much as 30% of the fuel/air is pumped back out into the intake manifold.
    If it was a true DI engine, that would just be air, as the fuel is added near top dead center.
     
  12. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    My personal interest is in how well it handles loose sand.
     
  14. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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  15. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    Also worth noting that while the Gen 4 is built on TNGA, it isn't using a TNGA engine, but rather an updated version of the Gen 3's 2ZR-FXE.
     
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  16. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    I am sure it could haul a lot of loose sand but it could be messy. :eek: ;)
     
  17. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I read reviews and tests, which makes the system current system really bad compared to other awd systems in snow, mud, handling, etc. The concept though is a good one, implantation is poor. Toyota talks about dynamic torque vectoring in the non-hybrid system between right and left, in the new hybrid system there should be more effective ability to switch front to back.

    The rear mg currently is 50 kw, 103 lb-ft of torque, but the important torque number is torque to the wheels which can be increased simply by changing the gear ratio. One problem with the current toyota system is it only works at low speed because of the way it is configured. Still 30% more torque to the rear wheels with better electronics and software can make a big difference. We will have to wait and see how it plays out.

    The battery seems undersized for the application. The 1.9 kwh nimh in the highlander claims 45 kw. This battery shrinks to 1.4 kwh which could put out 33 KW which may be good enough until you realize it won't be able to do that for long - 61 seconds will use its full 40% state of charge. If the front wheels slip too much the engine cuts off or at least power to the front wheels. This may be good enough at very low speeds but not to help a slip on snow or mud going faster. It probably needs a more powerful lithium battery to be effective at higher speeds. Still it checks a box, and may help those moving slow. It certainly looks better in the toyota video versus the current system.

    My guess is you kill off 1.8, but perhaps make a 1.6 L system. The di system should make the 2.0L more efficient than the current 1.8 at both low and high power levels, and you need to shrink it more or add cylinder deactivation to want to increase low power efficiency more. Toyota was a little behind on engine technology before, but with the PI-DI 3.5L, 2.5L, and now 2.0L they look to be ahead of everybody else in these efficient engines. The higher efficiency should reduce the use of the battery which may make it last longer and push hybrid efficiency higher.
     
  18. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Yes, it is useless off road and is definitely designed for just city driving (e.g. starting out on ice, snow or any other slippery surface). The non-hybrid RAV4 has a really good AWD system.

    The thing about the 1.3x is that we don't know what the motor is. 1.3x the E-Four in the Prius is nothing (The E-Four in the Prius is even weaker than the RAV4's), 1.3x the HiHy/RXh's motor is not too bad either.

    Also, is the engine allowed to send power to the rear electric motor? If so, then that'll help with the higher torque capability of the rear motor.
     
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  19. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    AFAIK, yes, power can flow from MG1 to MGR - in fact, I believe it has to, to get full power to MGR.
     
  20. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Will it flow if the front tires lose traction? Anecdotal evidence says it doesn't do this in the current rav4. Review of the highlander hybrid talks about torque steer which leads me to think that there is not enough shift to the rear motor. It would be interesting to know how much power can flow, and what situations it shifts.
     
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