Featured Toyota apparently abandons the BEV market for now.

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by markabele, Jan 7, 2019.

  1. markabele

    markabele Senior Member

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  2. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Lapsed Cargo Cultist

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    Doesn't seem too mature a piece of journalism, more a rant. Heck I could have written something comparable. Unmemorable quote:

    This is so dumb to me.

    I found myself critiquing the writer more than paying attention to the content.
     
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    The writer is just another one of those supposed experts who is really just an observer looking through the lens of the "EV market". It's quite obvious there's little understanding of how to make true change happen for the masses, especially when Tesla is used as a basis of comparison.

    These articles all follow the same format. They make assumptions based upon early-adopter behavior and figure ordinary shoppers will just naturally follow suit. Complete disregard for tax-credit influence, family budgets, basic knowledge of charging people lack is common. They just focus on the technology and believe dealers will magically embrace change quickly. The writers also naively think there aren't forces working against status quo disruption.

    Watch for the lack of a bigger picture. When there's no reference to the rest of the industry, it's likely just an attack piece targeting a specific vehicle or automaker. That's actually a clear sign of worry, in this case, that Prius Prime is stirring concern. The smug title of this topic reinforces that rhetoric of the past too. When enthusiasts doesn't like the direction genuine change is taking, we see articles like this.

    What I specifically look for is the lack of understanding of how the hybrid system actually works. Antagonists will reveal they are clueless about how Prius Prime operates if you give them the chance to make a fool of themselves. They end up stepping in their own poo. Then you can just blow them off as another obsessive enthusiast not actually interested in change for the masses.

    Remember, publications will publish articles to draw attention to themselves. So, seeing an article that stirs primal emotion based on misleading information is, sadly, a common practice. The hope is the misdirection will result in lots of comments being posted and repeat visits.
     
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  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    have to agree with toyota on this one. the market will come to them. there is more demand than supply right now, but what people are demanding that they can't get would be unprofitable. that's why no one is making it yet.
    toyota is not going to save the world like tesla is trying to, they did their part with the prius.
     
  5. padroo

    padroo Senior Member

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    I would like to see more electric options right now but I go along with Toyota. In the US with cheap gas and people still don't even know about the Prius, it is all status quo for most people in the US.
    For US manufacturers maybe an electric Mustang that competes with traditional muscle cars would get peoples heads out of their (as, I meant pickup trucks and pay attention). This is just what Tesla did when he built the Tesla roadster, he got everyone's attention and the rest is history.
     
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  6. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    I must add the dozens of other hybrids Toyota sold and is selling in increasing rate.
    Prius is probably only a third of all hybrids of the group up to now, production figures speaking, AFAIK 32 different models and some with 2 generations of the HSD system...
     
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  7. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    In my neighborhood gas is $1.969/gal. Range fill ups on every corner. Pickups parked in every driveway, not even a carport on a typical home. The typical buyer sees no reason to even buy a hybrid for $ more. Let alone an EV for $$$$$ more.

    Don't bet on change. Until ...
     
  8. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    What does "save the world" mean?

    Toyota is working to end the production of traditional vehicles, providing electrified choices for a far more diverse audience than Tesla. Think about how many they sell each year and where.

    It makes no sense painting a picture without that information.
     
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  9. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    it means taking a profit hit to prime bev's. taking a risk, as tesla is doing. going out on a limb, like elon musk.

    i don't expect them or any other mfg to do it. but i wouldn't mind if they did.
     
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  10. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

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    It is unfortunate that Toyota, with all its financial and technical resources, is not leading the way in development of 100% electric vehicles. The current management of Toyota will go down in history for one of the biggest mistakes in automobile development. It is a missed opportunity as a result of being too conservative and lack of vision for the future. Yes, I understand the past success of Toyota and innovation in some areas. But this really a bone-headed decision.

    Toyota says it doesn't worry about Tesla's lead, shuns all-electric and goes 'electrified' by 2025 - Electrek
     
  11. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Not familiar with the fable: "The Tortoise and the Hare"

    Just because they don't appear to be in the lead at such an early stage in the race doesn't mean they won't win.

    Toyota's focus in on moving the masses, not catering to early-adopters.
     
  12. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    hope so . . . .
    but the tortoise is going to have to get it in gear realy soon - & the hare is going to have to start snoozing for several years - the way it looks over the last half-decade.
    EV-Market-Share-California-1.png
    The exponential rate of Tesla's /growth compared to the initial hybrid growth is really no comparison. You might say, Toyota/ tortoise will have to pull a rabbit out of its hat - this, at a time when smaller car sales are going away quickly.
    .
     
    #12 hill, Jan 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
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  13. VFerdman

    VFerdman Senior Member

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    From the article:

    Nonetheless, Toyota plans to release a few all-electric vehicles of its own in order to capture some of that 4-6% of the market.

    We are talking single digit market penetration in the near future. I think Toyota is safe for a while. It's not as if over 90% of cars sold today are not covered by Toyota's offerings.
     
  14. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Basing progress on anecdotal observation of what's happening at the moment will give that impression. But if you do some digging behind the scenes, looking for stuff that won't be easy to see, you'll find Toyota is investing 1.5 trillion yen ($13.9 billion) in its battery business.

    So what if fruit of their hidden effort doesn't show up for a few more years still? Toyota's focus has always been on ordinary shoppers, not those who have lots of disposal income to buy the latest & greatest. Toyota doesn't seek glory or praise from enthusiasts. They sell a lot of vehicles each year, over 10 million. Most are just affordable choices that are so common, not much attention is given.

    Selling to the masses is far more difficult than just appealing to a niche, especially when there's a tax-credit to exploit. We can still have high hopes for Tesla, but we need to be realistic about audience. Their buyers are profoundly different from those Toyota is targeting.
     
  15. scona

    scona Member

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    Well Said!
     
  16. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

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    I remember when Toyota was first introduced in California in the late '50's. People laughed at it. It was tiny, it was ugly, and it had the questionable Japanese quality and reliability reputation at that time (the China syndrome of today). US automakers refused to take them seriously and failed to react. And look what the "hare" of that time has accomplished today. Toyota says that they may jump into "electrification" (more hybrids?) of segments of their line in 6 years (2025). National and State governments around the world are forcing people into 100% electric vehicles to fight climate change in the near future. Some governments are eliminating the hidden subsidy for the ICE through tax breaks and subsidies to the oil industry. The masses aren't going to have much choice if they fail to act and do their part to fight climate change voluntarily. Tesla doesn't seek glory and praise from enthusiasts, they don't even advertise, unlike Toyota. The last ad I saw from Toyota had a lot of chest pounding in it. And the other detriment to Toyota is their dealership model. The dealers are a real impediment to innovation by Toyota (sales, service, and repairs)

    Complacency of success often leads to stagnancy of innovation. Companies who don't learn from lessons of the past are condemned to repeat them.
     
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  17. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    someone already posted another thread with this link
     
  18. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    it feels like my entire post above was negated because I misspoke about how things are going "now", when as the chart shows, it's how things have been going over the last ½ decade. With hybrid sales slumping, again, over the last half-decade, Toyota can't rely on the notion of, "we're holding back to see how things go" mentality. or actually yes I guess they can and they do.
    if plugins are a niche, then Toyotas and others' hydrogen cars are the worst of a niche which they Lobby for a much easier to receive, and a higher amount here in California.
    As for selling to the masses, you can't sell to the masses until you first sell to the niche. If you're sales go up then you're selling to the masses if they go down (½ decade) well, what is that.
    .
     
    #18 hill, Jan 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  19. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

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    The mods will move it if need be, not to worry.

    I want to share an anecdote about the Toyotas from the early '60's.. My Grandfather was a hard working Irish farmer formerly from Kansas. He had a friend who worked as a car salesman at the new Toyota dealership in Sanger, Ca (of all places!). In their private moments together they referred to the cars as Toyotes (rhymes with coyotes). I asked my Grandfather why he called them Toyotes. The Toyota car salesman jumped in and said, "because they are scrawny, ugly, and ain't worth a damn. We sell them to dumb wetbacks who can't afford a decent car." They both got a great laugh out of this. At a young age, I found the reference reprehensible since some of my best friends were Hispanic and they treated me with kindness and respect and I reciprocated. I was very disappointed in my Grandfather, but I still loved him dearly.

    So if it weren't for those "dumb wetbacks", who were the early adopter niche market, at least in Sanger, Ca, where would Toyota be today? Is Toyota going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg?
     
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  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i don't follow your anecdote, toyota makes some of the most affordable cars on the road. and today, they are some of the most reliable. allowing transportation for people of all income levels
     
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