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Toyota Auris Excel Hybrid UK with a flat battery again

Discussion in 'Toyota Hybrids and EVs' started by RunningInPleasePass, Jan 19, 2014.

  1. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    I asked the question in an earlier post for the maximum measurements that will fit in the Auris but have not had any response. It is quite possible there is such a battery as if required these batteries are perfectly happy and safe working lying on there sides making there dimensions flexible as far as fitting goes. If someone comes up with the available space figures I would be happy to see what I can find to fit the space.
    I have been looking at a 90 AH battery that I believe I could fit in the Prius.

    John (Britprius)
     
  2. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    There have been a number of cases of the Auris problems reported here.

    John (Britprius)
     
  3. RunningInPleasePass

    RunningInPleasePass New Member

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    I have my car back now after having a new battery fitted, and I have been doing some testing.

    1) quiescent resting current when the car is IG-OFF = 0.01A (resolution of meter is 10mA)

    2) Voltage across 12V battery when car is IG-OFF = 12.4V

    3) Voltage across 12V battery when car is READY = 14.6V

    4) Voltage across 12V battery when car is IG-ON and headlights on = 12.2V

    All the above was after the car had been parked overnight.
     
  4. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    I am assuming that the 1) measurement is really 0.01A since the resolution of the meter is 0.01A.

    All of the voltage measurements look very good. Let's see how 2) changes after a couple of weeks elapse.
     
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  5. RunningInPleasePass

    RunningInPleasePass New Member

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    Sorry about the mistake, your right and I've now edited it, thanks.

    I'll do them again in a couple of weeks.
     
  6. Geo13647

    Geo13647 Junior Member

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    One for the battery experts.

    Is it possible / likely to have a perfectly testing battery, but damaged somehow.
    Say by sulphation, manufacturing fault or internal damage of some sort.
    That could cause the battery to self discharge at a higher current than normal.
    (All batteries self discharge in normal conditions).

    This might help to explain why the battery tests ok on the basic tests that the dealer or average diy'er would perform. However, due to the internal damage (carbon tracking possibly) although the capacity looks ok, it is being internally discharged at an increased rate.

    Any thoughts?

    G...
     
  7. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    Yes it is possible. The usual cause is a faulty separator between the plates or plate material braking off falling to the bottom of the battery shorting out the plates discharging that cell.
    It is also not unusual for the tester to have no clue on testing the battery often passing as good, bad batteries.
    There are other reasons but these generally apply to batteries that have been in use for some time.

    John (Britprius)
     
  8. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    In post #83, I noticed that 2) was edited to read 12.4V. If that is correct, that reflects around 50% charge. A fully-charged AGM battery will measure 12.9V and a discharged battery will measure 11.8V.
    Battery voltage and state of charge - Energy Matters

    I suggest that the battery should be fully-charged using a 4A charger intended for AGM batteries. Then see how measurement 2) changes over time. That measurement should be taken in the morning, after the battery has rested overnight.
     
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  9. RunningInPleasePass

    RunningInPleasePass New Member

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    Your right Patrick, I edited the post almost straight away, I can confirm the reading was definitely 12.4V

    I measured it first thing before the car had started, but I had to open the boot to get at the battery, so the car had turned on the interior lights and the boot light, and heaven knows what else, the reading was therefore with a small load and of course not open circuit as suggested in Energy Matters.

    Do hybrid cars try to achieve 100% charge for the 12 volt battery?
     
  10. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    Yes they can fully charge the battery, your reading of 14.6 in ready is high because the battery is partially discharged. The charge voltage should drop to around 13.8 to 14 volts once the battery is fully charged, as it becomes discharged the charging voltage increases.

    John (Britprius)
     
  11. RunningInPleasePass

    RunningInPleasePass New Member

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    I have always struggled to understand battery theory, I thought batteries were kept in the range 20% to 80% charge for maximum life, I've watched the display for the drive battery and I've never seen it higher then 80%.

    I agree the charging voltage looks high and indicates a high level of charge but I only measured it for a couple of minuets, perhaps it will drop after a while, I'll monitor it tomorrow with the "secret menu" (thanks Maxwell) and see if it drops.
     
  12. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    The drive battery uses different chemistry.
    Lead acid batteries "the 12 volt" should always be kept fully charged. Anything less than a full charge allows the plates to sulphate "a coating that stops the acid interacting with the plates" this reduces the area of the plates in contact with the acid reducing capacity.
    The HV "drive battery" is a nickle metal hydride battery and use KOH which is a costic solution that is an alkali.
    These batteries have what is known as a cycle life. A cycle is a complete charge and discharge, and they typically have a life of 800 to 1000 cycles.
    If you reduce the amount of charge and discharge to below and above the maximum and minimum values you can greatly increase the number of cycles. The down side of this is that the usable capacity is reduced, as in the Prius. This runs from around 80% charged to 40% discharged thus only using 40% of it's real capacity. The life cycle is unknown to us but it is in the many many 1000's of cycles.

    John (Britprius)
     
  13. Maxwell61

    Maxwell61 Active Member

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    Hello Brits mates, from Germany is popping out the culprit! You'll never guess.... the hazard switch!

    Actually the problem is not sorted, is not about a defective switch but about some tricky interactions in the ECU.
    The following link shows a post with a Toyota statement about the problem, but you have to subscribe to download it. And of course you have to speak German language. Which i don't, i'm waiting someone's collaboration in the next days. So i cannot give more info.
    The only thing i'm able to understand is: for the time beeing, when you turno off the system, push the hazard for 2 seconds. It will stop the draw. Jeez...

    Auris-Forum.de • Thema anzeigen - 12V Batterie nach 1,5 Wochen leer
     
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  14. RunningInPleasePass

    RunningInPleasePass New Member

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    I have had a problem with the battery in my Toyota Auris Excel Hybrid going flat twice, and my car has been into my local dealer for about a week to be tested.
    I had a meeting with a Manager of Toyota Customer Product Support, he talked me through how Toyota deals with this type of problem, and what they suspect the problem is; I have tried to put down in writing what was explained to me as best I can.

    First an explanation of the main items talked about as I understand them:
    CAN bus (for Controller Area Network) is a car communication network that connects devices to each other around a car, a modern car will have a number of these networks.
    ECU (for Electronic Control Unit) is a small computer, connected to the relevant CAN bus, reading and controlling devices connected to the CAN bus.

    When the Hazard Warning Switch is operated it puts two signals onto the relevant CAN bus, the first signal alerts the ECU and tells it to wait for the second signal, this second signal instructs the ECU to turn on the Hazard Warning Lights.

    It is possible for the Hazard Warning Switch to send the first signal and alert the ECU and instruct it to wait for the second signal, but not to send the second signal, the ECU is then left waiting, as the Hazard Warning Lights have to be able to operate all the time, even when the car is turned off and locked, so the ECU stays waiting all the time.

    The power consumption of the ECU is nearly 600mA, the driver can stop, start, lock and unlock the car but this power consumption will be a constant drain, it is only when the car is off, and not charging the battery that this ECU power consumption will show itself, and if the car is off for a prolonged time will completely drain the battery.
    Once the battery is flat, there is no power to the ECU, and when the battery is replaced or recharged the ECU has forgotten it is waiting for a signal from the Hazard Warning Switch, so the fault has gone.

    To test for this fault, you have to measure the battery load with everything switched off to see if the 600mA ECU load is present, it’s also possible with specialist equipment plugged into the OBD socket, to check the status of the CAN bus and ECU.
    At the moment the only way to remove this fault, is to turn the Hazard Warning Lights on then off, powering up then eventually down the ECU normally.
    This problem can affect all MKII Auris Hybrids, all other models are not affected.

    As I say this is only my best interpretation of the suspected fault as related to me, and I’m sure I’ve got some of it muddled up.
    I have been assured that Toyota take these kinds of issues very seriously, and are working on a resolution to this problem with some urgency.
     
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  15. Maxwell61

    Maxwell61 Active Member

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    Excellent resumé Running, i would add that the 600 mA drain is solely related to the Smart Key cars. It seems the drain is present also in the non-smart key versions but very rarely that led to dead batteries beeing a lot lower. Is'nt it?
     
  16. Alesf76

    Alesf76 Member

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    Wow! Someone forgot to add a timeout in the ECU firmware, to put the ECU to sleep if the second signal doesn't arrive within a limited timeframe. Maybe that when the main ECU is on, it also keeps the smart key system awake, so on cars equipped with it, the power consumption it's enough to drain the 35Ah battery in less than a day, while on cars without it can last more days.
     
  17. Geo13647

    Geo13647 Junior Member

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    Mine never dropped below 14.3v when the car was running, it only dropped below 14v when it was switched off.

    G...
     
  18. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    "When the Hazard Warning Switch is operated it puts two signals onto the relevant CAN bus, the first signal alerts the ECU and tells it to wait for the second signal, this second signal instructs the ECU to turn on the Hazard Warning Lights."
    This seems like an unnecessarily complex design. 2G Prius has the flasher relay directly wired to the associated switches (hazard switch and turn switch lever.)
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Seems to be the way things are going. As I understand it, the HHR alerts, like the seatbelt one, and flasher clicks are actually generated by the stereo. Replace the stereo with an aftermarket one, and you lose the sounds.
     
  20. comagfan

    comagfan New Member

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    HI all

    as you know i have been installed by Toyota Spain a carchip (battery powered to analyze my problem with auxiliar battery).

    I have been warned to do this procedure , put warning lights on 3 times and off when car is off, to "mark" OBDII device to log, it sound extrange to me, but could be related to what RunninPleaseass is talking..

    Is toyota in the way to know thats the problem?