Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and suburb

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

sorry, but over 10 years ago, using 20 year old battery technology, Toyota came up with an EV nearly overnight in response to laws and market pressure, i think they did a pretty fricking good job of putting together a reliable vehicle, many of which has stood the test of time.

if the "mid range" EV market gets support (more charging stations or a successful launch of a company like Better Place) Toyota will be ready with a version of their own. they did it 10 years ago and they no doubt, have the ability to do it now

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

I agree totally with his assessment, especially near term , since their will be no mass quick charge areas or quick charge packs for these cars close term, to let the cars travel longer distances.

I am left pondering though, if the assessment that these electric cars are suitable for short journeys and in city environments,which to me is what mostly city driving is, then how did the Gen III Prius get a 51 City MPG ?...Unless you're a taxi driver or delivery guy , I can't see driving in the city for a long duration and in most cases it takes 15 minutes to go through an entire city...50% of America's population live in urban areas...So if it takes 5-10 minutes to warm up(Those with block heaters need not apply,since this is not a standard accessory that comes with your Gen III) your car, you can rest assure that you will not get no where near 51 mpg(25-40 mpg on a thread on short duration driving)..The other 50% that drive their cars on the highway to get to a city environment,must get a better then 60 mpg in the city to make that 51 city mpg a fact.

I will start a new thread on this, 51 city mpg myth or fact ?

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

Am I reading this correctly?? Toyota is saying there will never be a quick charge option for an EV? If so then what are our choices of a range extender (as posted in the volt thread about hydrogen). Gas and hydrogen fuel cell.

If I am misreading their claims please let me know.

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

Nissan is already in the process of setting up 440 quick chargers, regardless of what Toyota 'believes'. I'm hoping Toyota is secretly getting ready to spring a surprise EV ... a well kept secret ... equal to Dec 7 1941.

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

One day, the battery technology will handle 100 - 300 miles on a single charge. The $1M question is, when?

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

Well it wont be using anything currently available. The physical energy density (the maximum charge you can force into the chemistry as allowed by the laws of physics/chemistry) is reaching maximum. Just like transistors on silicon are reaching sizes so small that electrons aren't behaving like electrons, and another medium is needed to progress much further.

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

30 minutes charging per 100 miles isn't exactly what most consumers are looking for to extend range.

Toyota might have dismissed this quick charge technology because it would conflict with their high standards for quality. As I know it charging batteries quickly like this reduces the overall life of the battery drastically.

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

You've got it right there. Energy density is the real limiting factor for EV's. Liquid fuels contain so much energy per kilogram and cubic centimeters that batteries are left in the dust. Its just the fact that burning these liquid fuels in an ICE is so inefficient and electric motors are so efficient that makes the two energy sources as close as they are. Sure you can make a bigger battery, but that comes with more weight and volume.

Until there is a quantum leap technological breakthrough creating a more dense electrical source you can't have a practical single car EV solution. As an EE I would never say such a breakthrough is impossible, but I've never heard of any proposed technology that would bring electrical storage density equal to liquid fuels. If it happens its likely to be a long way off.

Those old laws of physics get you every time. We just need to repeal them and we could do wonders!

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

Nissan says the Leaf range is 100 miles... Yeh, probably optimistic, but a good start!

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

EV and HV have different markets - not against each other. And, do not be offended, but HV is much more difficult to design and manufacture. Pure EVs have been available before, and battery life span was an holdback, and range also. With the newest technologies available, still range could not be extended. And those technologies are to be challenged by the players: electrophysics, not automakers. Nissan can make a very fine car, but cannot innovate ahead of battery improvements, sorry.

HV had to deal with many other difficult tasks (mechanical issues), but where available and where developed with success . And sold with many financial effort supported by Toyota and Honda...None of the other manufacturers had the nerv or the will to make a move towards energy efficiency that deeply.

I don't see anything wrong in Toyota assessment over EV limitations and goals, they are right.

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

That 'sour grapes' thought flys in the face of Nissan's written statement to 'under promise, and over deliver'. We'll see.

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

Today? Tesla roadster gets over 200 miles. The Leaf coming in December will be 100 miles. They have test vehicles doing this. I would expect the bev focus to be doing this sort of milage when it comes out in a few years.

I'm not sure where you took physics but we are not near the physical limits. If you are comparing it to silicon technology, just look how many years people have been harping that we are at the physical limit, as semiconductor companies continue to make things smaller and faster.

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

W/O reading other posts ... of course.

No one is going to plan a trip from SF to LA in a BEV. Who would want an 8 hour layover in Coalinga to recharge?

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

How long would it take to fully recharge a mostly discharged EV battery? That is thee key issue. I like to get in and out of 'fueling' stations.

Some have suggested battery swaps.

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

Toyota has already built pure EV's. They are just not ready to introduce one. They'll be ready when the time is right to go mainstream.

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

Don't worry folks, even the regular Prius will stomp the Leaf and Volt in sales for many years to come.

Most people are fine with a 50 MPG car that takes $3 to $5 / gallon gas and goes 500 miles / tank and can be had for $22k.

For most people, it's about ... how much does it cost? How does it perform? What can I put in it, etc... but, yeah, BEV's will be for a minority of people.

Geez, even hybrids aren't mainstream yet. I like what Lexus is doing though. Darker Side of Green, CT, fun to drive hybrid, hehe.

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

I concur

And EV'ers ... what about all those folks who park on the street overnight? Like in San Francisco. Charging outlets all along the curb? I could just see n'erdowells coming along and unplugging people's cars outside, overnight ...unfortunately.

But, as Ed Begley (sp?) said, EV's are for 98% of drivers .... sure.

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

Oh, of that I have no doubt. The RAV4ev was a great vehicle.
And I am not worried at all about how the Prius sales numbers do compared to the Volt and the Leaf.
All I am saying, is that Toyota will loose my business if there are other EVs on the market before theirs. Not saying they will loose market share (beyond my one sale) or that they will fail if they don't come out with EVs first, just that they will loose my business.

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

Although, I haven't tried, I could probably average 45 MPG in my 2009 Prius doing 1 mile trips only to the grocery store and back.

And my 2009 is currently reading 49.3 MPG at 250 miles into this tank, lots of 5 mile or less trips.

I have rarely seen anything below 45 MPG's on my MFD, even in 40 F weather.

And the 2010 does get a couple more MPG's than the Gen2.

 

Re: Toyota believes that electric-only vehicles will only suitable for short journeys in city and su

If anyone is interested, you can check out these links to MIT's Electric Vehicle Team.

If you take the 2010 Mercury Milan modified by the MIT Electric Vehicle Team (EVT) out for a spin,you might easily mistake it for a typical sedan—minus the engine noise, of course. This battery-powered conversion, dubbed“elEVen,†comfortably seats four adults, does 0 to 60 in nine seconds with a top speed of 100 mph, has a range of 65 miles (with the ultimate goal of 200 miles), and recharges in less than 11 minutes.

MechE Connects: EVT hits the road

This one gives an overview of some of their projects, including an electric motorcycle.

MIT Electric Vehicle Team: Vehicles

Of course, it's a long way from a single vehicle prototype to a commercially made car...