Toyota Dealers are Killing the Golden Goose

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by whatshisname, Aug 30, 2010.

  1. snead_c

    snead_c Jam Ma's Car

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    "I'd used Lexus of Rockville for years until my service writer left to go to a Jaguar dealer when I found my independent mechanic. I was back last month for the first time in years for my free 1,000 mile check on the new Lexus, even though my guy was gone I got excellent service from the woman who helped me. I'd have it serviced there with no hesitation at all, if it weren't for the cost."

    You've made many valuable and valid examples however, using your Lexus dealer to make a point about service is probably not the best choice :rolleyes:
     
  2. sub3marathonman

    sub3marathonman Active Member

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    This is just too good. Maybe you just "honestly" don't know when you've been ripped off. You also are coming across as a bit of a racist with the "black robber" generalization you are putting into this thread too.

    How many stories do you want? I can provide many more: Spent six hours at a Ford dealership negotiating for an F250. Finally reached an agreement. They suddenly got in a big hurry, and wrote up the contract. OOOOH, another one of those "honest mistakes," on the contract a 3 was changed to an 8. Wouldn't have caught it if I wasn't going over each line. It would have cost me $500 if I had signed though. They started saying that they would fire the salesman too because I didn't buy the truck. That truck sat on their lot for months after that. Another time I "bought" an F250 diesel. When I came back the next day with the trade-in I decided to look at it one more time. We walked around it, they were in a hurry. I had them open the hood. There was a giant space in the engine compartment. I asked where was the other battery. They said, with a straight face, "It only has one battery." I wonder how the other one got removed after we had a deal? I told them to keep the truck, it had already sat with them for over a year, and sat a lot longer after I left. And of course, it was supposed to come from the factory with two batteries. How about when my mom bought a new Dodge Dart? They wrote it up, then she heard them say, "go out and change those wheels." She asked about it, and they said those were special wheels that didn't come with the car but they had just put on. So she told them to keep the car too, and guess what, the wheels were supposed to go with the car.

    Maybe others could add a few thousand more pages? Why do dealers have such a reputation?
     
  3. SW03ES

    SW03ES Senior Member

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    Why?!?

    Racist? How? The mention of race does not make one racist. The statement I made was the antithesis of racism. If my experience made me think that all black people were robbers and thieves THEN I would be racist. Race exists ya know.

    Its simply an example of a prejudice.

    And please, I think in the many years I have posted here and the thousands of posts I have made I have demonstrated that I have more than a passing understanding of cars, car dealers & the automobile industry. Your insinuation that I "don't know" when I am being ripped off is insulting.

    Maybe the difference is I don't feel that a $78 synthetic oil change is a ripoff and I understand the economies behind why dealers actually have to charge for things that I don't have as many experiences as others here of being "ripped off". When a dealer tries to charge me more than I feel something is work, I don't whine and cry I simply go where I feel I am getting adequate value.

    I think the statute of limitations ran out on that example...

    I'm done, I'm happy to have a friendly and lively debate, but when people start insinuating I'm racist and questioning my intelligence over a discussion about car dealers...I need a break for some grown up time.

    You'll have to carry on without me.
     
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  4. snead_c

    snead_c Jam Ma's Car

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    Why ?
    Most luxury brands MB, BMW, RR, Infinity and yes Lexus charge more for their autos and more for their service and I suspect their customers usually get what they pay for. We seldom get more but can get less. Just an opinion.:eek:
     
  5. 09Priusman

    09Priusman Junior Member

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    Don't let some of the members get to you. Stay and stand your ground. You were only stating what I would say is true for a majority of America concerning African-American or Latino males. Racism is alive and well in the USA, as I can attest to. You are not a racist.
     
  6. SW03ES

    SW03ES Senior Member

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    Not to worry, I'm not going anywhere! Just this has become a circular argument...

    You see the same complaints and arguments on luxury car boards too. The same misconceptions and unrealistic expectations exist there as well.

    For the record, I also have a very honest and respectable Toyota dealer that I use, and have several great stories there as well. Most recently when my inverter coolant pump failed they matched the price of another local dealer, which since the car was towed to them and I was already indebted to them for the diagnostic charge they didn't have to do. They were supposed to change the oil and forgot to do it or charge me, and when I brought the car back they did it for free because they had forgotten. Very satisfied.
     
  7. snead_c

    snead_c Jam Ma's Car

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    Oh well, now that you've rained on my BMW parade...guess I'll have to be happy at Toyota :rolleyes:
     
  8. pEEf

    pEEf Engineer - EV nut

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    There are some things I must mention:

    Most people (including me) have NOT found the OEM GS Nippon Denchi battery to be AGM. It's a standard Flooded Lead-Calcium unit. See Hobbits excellent info page: Prius 12V battery exploration

    Since the late 70's almost all car batteries were switched to the "maintenance-free" type, which uses a Lead-Calcium recombinant system to recapture water lost during normal charging. They do NOT vent anything unless overcharged! If they did, you would need to routinely add water to replace it as in the days before lead-calcium.

    And AGM is a lead-calcium design as well. They both will vent if overcharged, with the difference being AGM will be easily damaged by this.

    The Prius OEM battery does indeed have a vent tube, which is designed to keep the Hydrogen/Oxygen out of the passenger compartment. The charging system in the Prius is a DC-DC converter that is not temperature compensated, nor does it do a proper 3-stage charge. This is why even with the slightest abuse, the 12V will fail. The fixed-voltage float is relatively high and will indeed cause loss of some water, especially if the temp is high. This may have erroneously lead many people to believe their batteries were AGM.

    The reason the Prius battery is expensive, is because of the size and the single-supplier availability. Because of zero competition, the dealers charge whatever they want, usually well over MSRP.

    The solution is to not buy them from the dealers. Buy the elearnaid $165 Optima, which really is AGM, and a superior battery that will last longer in the non-optimized environment in the Prius. Yes, you can put any battery you like in there that you can make fit, but if you put a cheap one in there, you will be replacing it again. The labor insures that it is not a good deal to go this route.
     
  9. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Ah, that's interesting. I must of picked up some bad information somewhere about the OEM battery being AGM. Perhaps I had it confused with the Optima.

    The rest of your post agrees with my knowledge. I do find it odd that the Prius uses such primitive charging circuitry for the 12V battery, given all of the other technology in the car. I suppose the designers considered it good enough, given the simple task assigned to that battery. That seems like false economy in the long run.

    Tom
     
  10. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    No, the original equipment 12V battery is supposed to be AGM. I would agree that some owners including Hobbit have found this was not the case. However I don't believe there is evidence that "most" owners have found this to be true.

    The 12V batteries in my Prius are AGM. See p. 6 of the attached TSB that provides advice regarding battery maintenance.
     

    Attached Files:

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  11. macmaster05

    macmaster05 Senor Member

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    This thread is hilarious. I find it amusing that other people are hating on SW03ES. He's been a douchebag for almost 2,000 posts. What does it say about this guy when everyone else notices it too? I'm glad it wasn't just me who noticed...

    I know I'll get in trouble for this post, but it's so worth it to call this guy out again.
     
  12. GuamKelly

    GuamKelly Member

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    OK, NOW you've pushed my buttons.

    THAT, my friend, is what's wrong with America today.

    Time was, if you were a broom pusher, you were expected to strive to be the very best broom pusher you could be. This idea, that "I don't HAVE TO do a good job if I'm not getting rich" springs from the very basis of our entitlement based, semi-welfare society.

    I'll tell you what -- if you work for or with me, and have such an attitude, you'll be job hunting soon. Very soon. If I get slip-shod work from a repair shop, whether dealer or independent, I will NOT be back, and I WILL tell my friends and associates.

    All that, and *I* am a card carrying Liberal!

    By the way, my local dealership wanted $328 for the battery (which they didn't even have on stock). Guess how long it took me to order the Optima kit?

    Grrr.
     
  13. pEEf

    pEEf Engineer - EV nut

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    Yes, this is really strange. Are yours also GS Nippon Denchi?

    I've heard some people have a Panasonic. I'll keep checking every Prius I can get my hands on and see if I can determine why same are AGM and others are not. In any event, the only real difference is that AGMs can (generally) supply more current with less sag due to the shorter electrolyte path. The down side is they absolutely are not forgiving of any overcharge that causes any venting.
     
  14. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Yes, GS Nippon Denchi is the original equipment 12V battery manufacturer.

    I know of Panasonic-brand 12V batteries used in the Classic Prius. This battery was not original equipment but was offered by dealer parts depts as an option for customers who wanted a larger battery capacity. Installation of that battery required a new mounting bracket as well as new cable connectors to fit the standard-sized terminals.

    I had installed that battery on my 2001 when I decided to replace the original battery after six years of service. One problem with that change was that the trunk liner piece that covers the battery access hole no longer fit snugly, instead there was a bulge. Some other posters who installed the Panasonic and new battery bracket reported a similar issue.
     
  15. pEEf

    pEEf Engineer - EV nut

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    Does it look like this?

    [​IMG]

    You can really see the liquid in the second frame. Mine is identical to this excepting the top labels being a bit different. I can see liquid rise and fall, which means it's not truly AGM.
     
  16. pEEf

    pEEf Engineer - EV nut

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    While doing some research to get to the bottom of this I discovered Yuasa merged with Nippon Denchi. Looks like they will be using the name "GS Yuasa" now: GS YUASA

    I can't find much detail, but apparently Yuasa makes VRLA (Valve-Regulated Lead-Acid) batteries with "glass mat separator technology", which is really "GM" rather than "AGM". AGM means that the electrolyte is fully "absorbed" by capillary action in the "Glass Mat". (See Wikipedia article on VRLA's: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorbent_glass_mat"]VRLA battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] ) This is also called a "starved electrolyte" system, of which a battery with visible liquid inside is definitely not!

    I think this is what's going on here with all the confusion. Toyota clearly mentions "AGM" in the service literature, but Yuasa calls it a VRLA with glass mat separators. So it's not *really* an AGM, which means electrolyte will spill if cracked, but also it will tolerate some overcharge without rapid failure. This is good because the Prius does not perform a proper 3 stage charge.

    Mystery Solved!
     
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  17. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    i agree that the 12 volt charging system is not the best used. 3 stage charging is recommended for any lead acid config even with AGM, but realize that at a standard charge voltage of 14.4 volts, the possibility of overcharging is very slight.

    in 3 stage charging, the charge voltage will eventually reach 15+ volts, so 14.4 volts was obviously set insure overcharging did not happen even in extreme conditions. which would seem to imply that Toyota is exercising a similar charge technology to where they never intentionally fully charge the battery

    now i have 2 VERY different situations; a 2006 driven by a COMPLETELY Clueless operator who has killed her battery 4 times. (twice it was predicted but she went ahead and did it anyway). to date, we have had no lasting negative repercussions. (knock on post recycled fiber!!)

    now the 2nd situation is my 2010 and i am fully aware of the issues the 12 volt battery can present. i also had mine fail to provide enough charge to start or operate the electrical locks. i jumped it, its fine. now the ONLY possible scenario i can think of is that it did happen when the car had sat for around 8-9 days. but that "sit" time is something that had occured at least a half dozen times in the past. sooo, dont know.

    obviously the 12 volt charging system does need work. for what it does, a 4 pack of D cells could handle the work
     
  18. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    The GS battery with translucent white case is the smaller battery, 28 Ah capacity. One version of that was installed in Classic, and another in 2G without Smart system. The difference between those two versions was reversed terminal polarity since the Classic battery is mounted on the left side of the trunk.

    The 2G w/ Smart has a GS battery with a black case, so you cannot see inside. That battery has a capacity of ~36 Ah.

    My 2001 had the GS battery with white case. I opened it up and saw the fuzzy white mats inside. No free liquid. The 2004 had the black case battery, and I did not hear any fluid sloshing around when I removed it and shook it. However I did not remove the cover on top of that battery.
     
  19. SW03ES

    SW03ES Senior Member

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    I'm not saying its right...but it is reality.

    As someone would be if they worked for me and had that attitude.

    You seem to think I am of that attitude and I'm not, quite the opposite, but other people are.

    If you want to believe that every employee you meet is going to treat you as if they were the owner of the business you are patronizing, you are going to be continually disappointed.

    Um, I don't see anyone hating on me here but you. People are disagreeing with me, some strongly but I'm a grown up and I understand that disagreement is not "hate".

    In fact I have been thanked several times in this thread, including once in PM. So, I'm not quite sure where you're coming from.
     
  20. macmaster05

    macmaster05 Senor Member

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    "Disagreement" is a euphemism.
     
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