Featured Toyota going to sell all-solid-state battery EV in 2022

Hard to tell what this means five years out, but I'm glad to see that Toyota seems to be slowly catching on to the immediate realism of BEVs. It sounds like they have yet to comprehend the huge infrastructure gap, and comparative inefficiency, of FCEVs, though...


iPhone ? Pro

 

You see a new article like this every day

Until Toyo has it on their website for sale...

 

Another article on this topic:

2022 Toyota electric car to use solid-state batteries for faster fast charging: report

I think that as long as it has decent range, 200 miles minimum by that point, and doesn't cost say, $40k+, it would probably be acceptable.

Like the greencarreports article hints at, I have a feeling they're going to do the same thing that Hyundai did with the Ioniq, release a regular hybrid version, a plug-in hybrid version, and an all-electric version.

I honestly think this would be the best approach, since it gives people a choice on what powertrain they want, so someone who's not comfortable with having an all-electric car can settle for a regular hybrid. Or a plug-in hybrid, and do some of their commuting on electric, and having the gas backup for longer trips.

What would be more awesome is if they also made this available in say, the Rav4 or Highlander. I really hope that plug-in SUV's and trucks are cheap and practical enough to start showing up en masse by that time.

 

starting to sound like gm. who's going to remember in 2022 if it doesn't pan out. this type of hype is unusual from toyota, but maybe there is more to the science paper than i understand. can science accurately predict production timelines?

 

An interesting challenge:

Look at the first six seconds of this video:

The electrolyte works like Newton's cradle in if you inject an ion on one side, another pops out on the other side. This is called "ionic conductivity" so Newton's cradle is a physical analog to what is in the second paragraph:

All-solid-state batteries contain a cathode, anode and electrolyte, and the properties of the batteries depend mostly on the characteristics of the electrolyte. The low rate capabilities and low energy densities of the all solid-state batteries are partly due to a lack of suitable electrolyte materials that exhibit high ionic conductivity comparable to liquid electrolytes.​

This is a materials problem because you need an electrolyte that allows ions to flow between the two sides while remaining the original properties. If you inject on ion on one side, an identical one pops out on the other. The trick is finding materials that work on the atomic scale to accept ions on one side that pop out the other with a minimum of resistance and no chemical conversion (i.e., electrochemical stability) into a non-electrolyte compound.

The trick is the electrolyte can not ever let the anode and cathode connect within the battery. That short destroys the cell because the electrons no long have to pass outside the cell. Today, our liquid cells have a plastic mesh infused with the electrolyte. The electrolyte carries the ions from one to the other, the conduction of ions. The electrons take the external path.

If there is a specific paragraph, quote it from the article and I'm sure one or more of us will attempt to translate it.

Bob Wilson

 

Let's ask Elon Musk.

Bob Wilson

 

that's what's great about the interweb .... not having to remember who it was that blew all that smoke up our sphincters. My favorite, from a couple years ago ?
Toyota expects to sell 30,000 fuel cell vehicles a year by 2020 - Autoblog
so ... back of the napkin ... Toyota only needs to unload another 29,200 - 29,300 more cars, w/in the next 2½ years.

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I take no joy in this as trying to push these high-pressure tank, hydrogen fuel cells has always been nonsense to me. However, I saw a USA initiative to make hydrogen powered, container trucks the the Port of Los Angeles that does make sense. Perhaps a locomotive application ... in Japan first?

Bob Wilson

 

I am too lazy to read the article, but keep in mind gasoline has enormous energy density, so say 200 miles is a whale of a lot of electrons. Fast charging that is going to need a small power plant. If it's for China I'd be looking at a smaller bat which could be fast charged due to being small. Auto equivalent of those small electric motorcycles so common over there

 

Ultrafast-Charging Solid-State EV Batteries Around The Corner, Toyota Confirms
[Exclusive] Hyundai Motor solely developing EV batteries

The big hydrogen 3 are Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai. Honda has already teamed with GM to design a pretty attractive clarity phev - which should be available later this year. Hyundai and Toyota are looking at solid state batteries. Hyundai spoke first and expects they will be in one of its bevs in 2030. Hyundai it appears to be working with both lg and samsung. Both make cell phones, and if a good solid state battery comes out, I would expect it in an expensive cell phone or laptop. Toyota says 2022 and has demoed a solid state battery in a skateboard. To me, it seems a sure thing that by 2030, there will be better battery technology. It may simply be lower price and weight lithium polymer (which is a form of lithium ion) like I am currently using in my iPhone and laptop.

2022 for a tesla model 3 competitor with solid state battery, sounds much too soon. Perhaps they will make a low volume mirai bev, as there is plenty of space for a large battery where that fuel cell and hydrogen tank have lived.

I don't know anyone that knows which battery will be a winner in 2030. Solid state has a chance. Glass mat + sodium may be much smaller (volume for same energy) than lithium ion. I'm glad toyota and hyundai are pushing R&D for this. Using much more plentiful sodium instead of lithium may reduce costs greatly when plug-ins are produced in millions of cars a year.

I do not like the hype of the story though. It seems to be based on bad assumptions that people don't want a bev or a more competent phev today, we have to wait for this new breakthrough technology. Tesla seems to have broken through on just today's battery technology, and gm and bmw also have some pretty attractive offerings as plug-ins go. Nissan may be joining them with a redesigned leaf with better range - still using lithium ion.

Well how are you going to convince government not subsidize tomorrows fuel cell more than today's plug-in if you don't tell them how much better the fuel cell will work. Seemed to work on the Japanese and California governments. Fool me once shame on you, fool the government dozens of time - well shame on those government people that have been subsidizing the kool-aid.

Toyota's Assumptions

1) People want to fill up cars the way they have been doing it, but going to a fueling station, filling fast, paying for the privilage each time.

2) Because of assumption 1 - people will just buy phevs for the government subsidies, so the battery side doesn't need to work that well. They are not going to charge at home or work, and will just fill with gas.

3) Performance doesn't matter, just because you can build a better performing plug-in, people won't pay more for that performance.

4) Lithium ion is not good enough, nimh or some new future tech is needed.

Now I don't think these are Akio Toyoda's assumptions, they were there when he took over. Chairman of the board and head of north america have spouted all these things.

Assumption 1 is completely wrong, on surveys people would rather fill at home. They also would like to refill quickly on long trips. That perhaps leads to lower cost range extenders - something bmw is trying to do in its i series. Many don't have access to a plug, which means they won't buy a plug-in (60% of the market probably) whether it is solid state or lithium ion, unless they can refill conveniently (this may be at work or the mall, not necessarily fast at fueling stations.

Plug-ins have performance advantages that many are willing to pay for.

 

.... not to worry - with battery back up, many of us who already have rooftop/small power plants - are good to go. But for those who can't afford that? - or are renters?
Think big .... think VERY big .... think 25 gigawatt hr's/day;
.... + bigger & bigger systems - both photovoltaic & wind continue to come online - coupled with battery backup.
average ev drive uses well <8kWh's a day. Back-of-the-napkin that big array could supply 3.125 million electric cars for their daily drives.
BTW, even if all that power from that single array, were only used for quick-chargeing exclusively, that would still do about ¼ million cars/day .... but of course only a small fraction (< 5% of drivers) are marathon driving, meaning the majority don't do long-distance quick charging because they can charge at home or work for the most part. So having everyone quick charging as a problem - is sort of a straw man.
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I have asked before, but how do you dump 60kw-hrs into a battery in a "few minutes"? Assuming a 440v battery, 60,000 watt-hrs is about 140 amp-hrs. If you put that into the car in 5 minutes, it becomes a 1680 amp draw. Even a 20 kw-hr battery will require 540 amps. This makes a level 2 home charger look like a cell phone wall charger.

 

Kind of helps you realize why Tesla has been experimenting with water cooled nozzles on their superchargers - so they can up the amperage even higher. Even at 135 amps, they do feel slightly warm to the touch in the summertime.

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I guess they can go to superconducting wiring.

 

I've got to question these assumptions. Let's say you want to charge 60 kwh in 20 minutes, that requires 180 kw on average. Now lets say you want to charge the same amount in 1/10th the time or 1.8 MW for 2 minutes. What if 1000 cars want to do it at the same time as peak electricity demand, say lunch on a sunny day - 1.8 GW. Its not going to happen cheaply like gas stations. There will need to be a mechanism to slow it down (super charger network does this) or charge people so they will charge at home or at least not all at the same time during peak.

California has over 10,000 gas stations and over 20 million vehicles. These collisions will happen with fast charging if that is what is prescribed. Again, 20 minutes per charge relaxes things quite a bit, but tesla also has created new rules for the heavier volume model 3, so that people prefer to charge at home. Faster is better for highway based long haul stations. I think these problems can be solved with big batteries at the stations, but of course these will get less use than a heavily traveled commute type station. IMHO for those that regularly go over 400 miles in a day, a phev or other efficient engine is necessary.

ZEVs are going to be a slow roll, and it will take decades to lower costs, figure out all the infrastructure issues. solid state batteries can help but they are not necessary.

 

SuperconductingCERNcables by drysider posted Jul 25, 2017 at 1:16 PM

 

Been there, done that:


If the current is too high, increase the voltage.

Bob Wilson