Toyota is comparing the Prius PHV to the Chevy Volt

See, Wolf, the problem is, that right now, we only have '1' data set from '1' person. Another data set from another person. This is literally comparing 'Apples to Oranges to coconuts to Mr. Wonka's Nerd candy' The only hard facts is that 3 things are 'real' but only '1' is relevant to one person.

This is where we have to have people doing BOTH. Not one, with their set of data, another with their set of data, but not under the same conditions... It doesn't "work". A fact comparison is done when you limit the number of variables, and to be honest, you can't compare facts when the variable is distance and hill conditions are drastically different and brow beating people with numbers with things that are not the same conditions is ridiculous.

 

Voltstats.net has a pretty large data set. Prius PHV owners are starting to use Fuelly to track both gallons and kWh consumption. Note that Voltstats.net doesn't have kWh consumption, just the gallons. When Prius PHV data grow, we'll be able get a better picture and then compare. As mentioned before, Prius PHV initial data look very good.

 

The first charge is done at night, so charge time isn't an issue then. If a person has a chance to charge during the day, it's a faulty assumption that they would only take advantage of it with a Prius PHV but not a Volt.

The scenarios were on just gasoline consumption. Specificly, at what point would they have consumed the same amount of gas. Whole picture would include the electric. Would could give the cars a set amount of Kwh to use and also measure how long it takes for the trip.

 

I completely agree. Although, to be fair, the PiP just came out so it is hard to make arrangements to drive one for several days.

I rented a LEAF for 3 days late last year on a business trip to try it out and try quick charging. That was fun and useful but I wasn't driving on my usual at home so I couldn't make a direct mileage comparison (it was also colder than back home with temperatures in the 20-40F range.

So far I've driven a 2012 PiP a couple of times casually down city streets for a few minutes. It seemed like a great car to me (long-time Prius owner) and I had no problem keeping in EV mode on city streets but I tend to drive conservatively. I'll probably try to arrange to borrow one for 2-3 days sometime in the next few months.

 

That is understandable, however, right now, I think the spreadsheet quibbling over 'what is better' is a waste of time and breath cause in the long run, the Real World actual information has much more relevance than people making arguments with suppositions or vague notions that are simply just not grounded on facts.

 

Scenario #4 is to let the PiP to take advantage of being able to charge twice in a 24 hour period like charge at night and charge at work. How many AER miles can the volt drive with 3.6 hours of charge time?

 

Which sprearsheet were you referring to?

 

I think the point of spreadsheets/discussions are to help people understand what is best for them. One car is not unequivocally better. Each is better for different people in different setting.

The Plugin conversion I drove could do low 50s, so I don't think tis comparable. If i get a chance to rent a PiP I'll do it just for the experience.
But that will not be on my normal route.

 

Doc... I have seen the point of Spreadsheet/discussions... I have also seen them go HORRIBLY wrong in proving a point because people are too damn biased with what they want to prove, they find the conditions that prove their point, but ignore the one important point... How it actually goes in the Real World.

Example - Increasing range based on a hill. Great. Except if you only take it 'one way', you color it the argument as 'defacto' truth. That is why I argued that you don't really 'gain' range when it gets lost on the way 'going back'. Your argument back is 'Well, I charge at work, therefore, I don't lose range.' Again, that is a condition not taken into consideration.

If you want people to do a comparison, you do 'like for like'. If you treat the test by doing something different, you create false data, no control. For a person who should have a strong physics degree, you should know better about changing the conditions of the test to prove a point. If you are doing it for your own experience, it won't matter, but if you want to argue points or a spreadsheet/discussion answer, you don't do it with tainted/questionable datapoints.

 

While I think I understand (the advantages of) the Toyota concept of blended driving and what you are trying to say, your quote "Electricity consumption will be lower" is exactly what you DON'T want if you bought a Volt. You want to run it on electricity.

At least I would.

With solarpanels supplying 100% of needed power for my commute (which happens to be about 2x22 miles, so might just fit within Volt capability).

But even though I am the ideal candidate for the Volt, it won't cut it due to just 4 seats (hence me never driving it and never finding possible other reasons for it not working for me.) And we only have 230V~ so I have to worry less about your long chargingtimes whatever plugin I would choose

 

Post 61

 

Why 3 hours? At 208-240 volts, the '11-'12 Leaf takes 7 hours to charge from empty. Is that something an EV consumer won't tolerate? At 120 volts, it's ~20 hours, which could be a problem for some.

The relatively fast charging at 120 volts of the PiP of 3 hours means that I think most well-informed PiP buyers won't bother w/the expense of installing a 240 volt EVSE at home. Your car is in the garage turned off after you get home for a lot longer than 3 hours.

For the Volt, it's 10 hours at 120 volts. Again, this still seems reasonable for the above scenario to not have to spring for a 240 volt EVSE.

 

I don't want to use electricity just for the sake of being a blend of domestic fuels (mostly fossil). I also want to consider the amount of energy required to generate electricity vs. the amount of energy saved from not using gasoline.

The real question is, the amount of kWh it takes to save a gallon of gasoline. For Prius PHV, it is clearly displayed and tracked in the car. For example, 3.4 gallons saved with 41 kWh.



For the Volt, nobody really knows because neither the car nor Voltstats.net track the lifetime kWh consumption. Electricity input was treated as free with zero consequence in generation.

My point was, we want to keep the electricity consumption and the battery weight (and size) low enough so the hardware required for the EV miles is not counter-productive - in term of size, weight, efficiency, emission, etc. The best way to maximize electricity usage and minimize EV hardware load is to charge a smaller battery often.

I don't want to blindly use electricity to go further before using gasoline. I want the synergy to increase the efficiency of both the gas engine and electricity usage.

 

If your goal is to maximize EV mile and minimize gasoline usage, Volt is for you. It has much bigger battery pack so it is a no brainer. The question is how many kWh for how many gallons.

You completely ignored the electricity consumption and only focused on gasoline usage. If you do that, Volt will go more miles to a gallon of gas. Keep in mind that both the Volt and PHV use two fuels. The fueleconomy.gov links you provided does not show kWh consumption. It is simply dividing miles (electric miles included) by gallons consumed.

For a vehicle that uses two fuels, ignoring one fuel would result with incomplete picture. For example, Prius PHV can go 541 miles with 3.2 kWh of electricity. That's pretty much meaningless.

 

FYI - You all realize that right now, most solar cells are not 100% efficient. The amount of surface area to power a car is a bit high right now, as pointed out here:

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_car]Solar car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The current Solar car concepts are not 'practical' at the moment, mostly due to the solar cell effectiveness is like 15-20%. They are great if you are looking for lower voltages, but higher voltages, it requires a lot more effective surface area to get the most out of it.

And when I say 'not practical', when you look at the cars they have so far, most of them are single person, thin, literally 'wing' designed cars to give the most 'surface area' and least drag resistance. Cars people want will not work well with this design for the long run unless you are planning on being a single commuter and not carrying anything.

 

Well, a full charge takes 10hrs from a standard plug. So roughly 12.6 miles. About the same as the Prius PHV. It might be a little more, since most smart chargers use a faster rate at first and then back off.

Why 3.6 hours? The most common use of a vehicle is commuting to work. The most likely scenario with a second charge during the day is the person is charging at work. In which case, a charging time of 6hrs, 8hrs, or even longer is possible.

The situations in which you will be able to charge for 3 to 4 hours but no more aren't common. Going to the movies or a show is one. I personally want to go in and get out while shopping, but I can see extended mall trips as another. Those are not generally a daily occurance. Working is, and most jobs wouldn't have such a time limit on charging.

A quick charger will greatly increase the times a P-PHV can take more advantage of its smaller pack. As long as you are willing to risk the long term health of the battery. Quick charging is abusive to the pack. Even with slow charging the P-PHV manual recommends not to start charging use soon as you shut the car down in order to maximize the pack's life. So even multiple charges at the slow rate carry a, likely slight, risk.

Using a small pack to save space and costs is a fine decision. Touting the short charge time for such small pack is marketing spin. It's no different than only having the space for a 5 gallon fuel tank, and saying users will have a low fill cost. The fact is that the efficiencies and chargers in most available plug-ins mean that they are all getting about the same amount of EV range per time. The P-PHV just fills up faster, but it isn't getting more EV range than the Volt or Leaf with the same amount of charging.

The arguement that those cars aren't making full use of their battery with short charges is also spin. They all will, unless forgotten to plug in, have a full charge in the morning. In order to get the same EV range as the others during the day, the P-PHEV has to have access to chargers where it's going, and also the time for the charge. The others can also pick up more range with an extra daily charge. So what if they can't get a full charge in the same time. Depending on the details, short charges into a large pack can be less stressful on it than fully charging and fully discharging a smaller pack multiple times during the day. Besides, they aren't as pressured to find charging to get what is felt to be full use of their PHV.

 

OnStar captures kWh charging data and uses it to generate the monthly status reports they send by email to Volt owners. My impression is that some data is not displayed or is approximated at Voltstats.net because of limitations in the OnStar web API that is used to access the data. OnStar is developing a new API and the developer of voltstats.net has said he wants to switch to using it when it becomes available.

 

Pathetic, GM

 

Can you post a sample of the report? Preferably, the most recent one.

 

Here's an example I found on this person's blog:

Along with this image:



If you go through the months on the right hand side, he has one posted for each month (at least for Jan-Mar of this year, the ones I checked)

Source: http://2011volt.blogspot.com/2012/01/january-onstar-vehicle-diagnostics.html