Toyota Owners Jump Ship to Tesla

Full benefit?

Camry hybrid is a new generation of hybrid uses TNGA, a major gain for both automaker & consumer.

What makes "purpose built" better at this point?

 

This just shows that Toyota has the ability to compete in the BEV market if they wish. Instead they are being dragged, kicking and screaming, into that market by economic pressure to compete. When was the last time you saw consumers lining up 24 hours in advance, in the rain, outside a Toyota dealer to buy a "quite impressive" Prius or Camry because of a vapor injected heat pump in a Prius? The efficiency of a Toyota hybrid is impressive but no more so than a hybrid maker like Hyundai. Neither of those is as efficient (or as safe) as a Tesla.

You ignore the investment and advancements that Tesla has made in infrastructure, Tesla service "stores", gigafactory technology, PV solar collection system, and supercharger system.

Tesla is yet to be profitable because the did put "the horse before the cart." Tesla has come under a lot of criticism by people who don't understand economics - the need to build well founded infrastructure to support the desired outcome. You have completely ignored that Tesla does have the battery production to build cars that have over 300 mile range and a supercharger infrastructure that currently provides long range travel that is approximately equal, time-wise, to an ICE car at about 1/3 the cost for "fuel". Actually, I refuel mine (PHEV Prius and model 3) for free at home, during the night, since I have Tesla PV on my roof. So Toyota does ride on the back of Tesla infrastructure in my case.

I just priced a Prius Prime that is optioned as close as I can get to a base model 3. The Prime comes to $31K and the model 3 to $35K. The Prime does not have a large format User Information screen, Over The Air updates, blazing road performance, larger passenger space, Ranger, come to your home/business, service and repair, lower operational cost, stellar safety ratings, freedom from the tyranny of the gasoline station and dealership structure, and I could go on. For all of Toyota's vast experience and engineering prowess, they have yet to exceed the accomplishments of a small, start-up automaker. The fact is Tesla is kicking Toyota's butt from an economic, marketing, technological, and innovative stand point. Toyota can and should and will do better in the future but only because they are being dragged, kicking and screaming, into the future of personal transportation by the likes of Tesla or else they will perish in the long term.

You are using some platitudes that are mixing Mega-, Macro-, and Micro-economics, Do not go there unless you want to get into an academic and/or pedantic debate where you have the qualifications to compete. To dumb it down to the lowest common denominator, does Toyota have a demand for model where people stand in lines stretching around the block, willing to wait for 2+ years for delivery, and have 500K pre-orders? Toyota can and should be able to do that, now let's see if they have the will to understand economics in its most basic form of supply and demand.

Bolt is a compliance car with limited production and sold only in a handfull of States. GM supports lowering emission standards so they can get rid of the Bolt which is not profitable. Toyota (and GM) should get into that game because it is the future of personal transportation. Petroleum is a non-renewable energy resource. Legacy automakers need to adapt or die, it is that simple.

Toyota made a huge mistake by investing in their fuel cell technology, they were not all in on their commitment. They are making the same mistake again with their half-in, half-out approach to EV technology. Toyota can survive, but they need to scrap all their top management and start afresh.

 

The aerodynamics and other design points were based on the higher volume gasser models. Notice they went with steelie wheels on the US HyCam LE to match the Prius combined EPA mileage. Inside, they are comparably sized vehicles.

 

In terms of a hybrid, nothing. You are either supplying a "purpose built" 100% BEV or you are not.

 

Some things you’re saying here I agree with, such as Toyota investing so heavily in FCEV technology (for consumer vehicles; other applications might have potential).

However, I don’t think this (above) is true. The Bolt’s 238-mile range is way beyond what is needed for mere compliance, and I’m pretty sure it’s now sold in all 50 states, or at least certainly not just in a handful.

 

"GM spokesperson Fred Ligouri if Bolt sales “Are meeting expectations?” Fred responded: “Yes, much like the Chevrolet Volt, the Bolt EV is attracting new buyers to Chevrolet showrooms and introducing the benefits of living electric to an even larger audience of drivers. Bolt EV is currently available at dealers in eight states and will be available nationwide by late summer.” He added that the Bolt is also meeting sales expectations in the important state of California."​

It remains to be seen if GM follows through because the Bolt has yet to be profitable as a sub-unit of GM, despite Mr. Ligouri's positive spin although Bolt IS NOT meeting sales expectations in the other 7 States where it is sold.

 

Stationary power fuel cells are already on the market. There are even models available for home power. These all run on natural gas. That could be done renewably, but currently isn't. Renewably made methane or hydrogen plus a fuel cell might have a future as power generation when renewable sources can't meet demand, but right now they aren't economically competitive to battery banks. Hawaii and Australia are using batteries.

Fuel cells might have a future in transportation, but not if they require pure hydrogen. The required infrastructure for that is simply too expensive to work for personal cars, and likely more expensive for fleets, like buses, than BEVs and chargers. To have a chance at replacing the ICE as range extender on a car, the fuel cell needs to use a liquid fuel. Toyota is using PEM fuel cells, these only work with pure hydrogen.

Toyota is using NiMH where ever they can. Two Prius trims and two Camry ones in North America. Plus, IIRC all the Prii in Europe use NiMH. Their hesitance to use Li-ion has nothing to do with whether the technology is good enough, but with where they made their past investments.

The battery is still a good piece of the price. That is the cost and price hurdle. BEVs will soon match ICE cars in total ownership costs though.

If that was so, Ford wouldn't have needed to cancel cars in the US. They are starting the roll out of 40 plug in models.

If TNGA had been purpose built for at least PHEV, there would have been no compromise to cargo space in the Prius Prime, and the non-PHEV models wouldn't have been effected. That does not speak well of Toyota's future plans for plug in offerings.

 

Nope, it was a very very different market back then.

Nope, I'm not the one making "behind" claims.
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i understand the personal passions here, but i think they are clouding reality for those who think one manufacturer is doing things right, and another wrong, just because they aren't making a vehicle that suits them.

 

Toyota has stated technology concerns about Li-Ion in cold environments, so they are cautious in their battery selections.

 

if ford isn't making money, shame on them. it has nothing to do with electrified vehicles, there's no money in that.

 

I think the Toyota hybrid vehicles suit me but they are very poorly marketed.

 

they don't need to get in the game while it's a loser. they can jump in at the right time and reap the benefits.

 

probably because they make more money on gassers. they sell as many hybrids as they desire to. everyone keeps forgetting, 'it's business, it's not personal'.

 

GM gained a lot of good PR from their conquest sales and dependency on tax-credits, while also offsetting emissions with CARB offerings. So, the perspective of losing depends upon goals.

Toyota, as with Tesla & Nissan, are all shooting for long-term sustainability.. .but are indeed each taking their own path on their own schedule.

 

for tesla, there is no alternative.

 

Relatedly: When can I buy a Chevy Bolt EV electric car? See state-by-state schedule

I was thinking they’re farther along than they apparently are.

I personally don’t think GM expects to make much money on the Bolt (possibly even a loss). I think their goal is to use it to firmly establish them as a leader in the BEV Market, and to get valuable experience in designing, manufacturing, marketing, selling, and supporting BEVs.

 

i think their purpose is to sell more trucks and suv's in california.