Toyota Primes Its New 120MPGe Plug-in Hybrid Prius

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by Felt, Mar 27, 2016.

  1. Andyprius1

    Andyprius1 Senior Member

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    That seems more sensible, and 600 miles is also quite good. See Bisco, you can drive to Chicago now.
     
  2. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

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    I've said it elsewhere, possibly in this thread, but MPGe is idiotic. All it does is confuse the consumer, who is familiar with MPG, but doesn't know how it relates to MPGe (if it even does). Heck, I'm a science minded enthusiast of cars and technology, and I don't really know how Miles Per Gallon equivalent is derived. Electrons aren't measured in gallons, so attempting to equate it to a heat (burning fuel) engine is absurd.

    The measure of electric efficiency needs to be expressed in a useful unit such as Miles (Kilometers) per kWh, or kWh per 100 miles. With this info I can actually approximate the expected range of any given vehicle with a given battery capacity.

    I don't know who the genius is that invented the MPGe, and I doubt the stupid system will change, but at least I have this forum to vent my frustration.
     
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  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    MPG is idiotic too. All it does is mislead the consumer... The measure of gasoline efficiency needs to be expressed in a useful unit such as...

    Notice the problem? We're stuck with a flawed measurement system. Your suggestion of fuel-quantity per 100 miles is what some of us have been wanting for many, many years. It hasn't happened. It most likely won't be accepted for many years to come... here.

    Elsewhere in the world, they do have sensible way of what they measure. We don't here. MPG has problems. MPGe mimics them.

    Being consistent can be helpful. That's the approach EPA has chosen to at least make the understanding a little easier.
     
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  4. TonyWilkey

    TonyWilkey Member

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    I never met or heard of anyone is the USA that doesn't understand MPG (Miles per Gallon). How is it idiotic? They sell fuel in gallons and our cars measure distance in miles.
     
  5. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    It's extremely misleading... which is why most of the rest of the world doesn't use it. Compare a vehicle getting 30 MPG to one getting 50 MPG. Those numbers don't tell you how much fuel is actually consumed over any particular distance... for example, 100 miles.

    Notice how much more informative these are:

    3.33 gallons / 100 miles
    2 gallons / 100 miles
     
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  6. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

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    You're correct that there is useful information about MPG and that you can estimate fuel consumption using those numbers, but as mentioned above by John, the way the number is expressed is distorting for most people.

    For example, if I trade in an old car that got 20 MPG for one that gets 30 MPG, we know the new car gets 10 more miles per gallon. If later on I trade in the 30 MPG car for one that gets 40 MPG, the new car again gets 10 more miles per gallon. However, the fuel savings isn't linear each time we increase by 10 MPG, but the average person probably doesn't realize this.

    20 MPG = 5 gallons per 100 miles
    30 MPG = 3.33 gallons per 100 miles (1.67 gallon savings compared to 20 MPG)
    40 MPG = 2.5 gallons per 100 miles (0.83 gallon savings compared to 30 MPG)

    As you can see, there is a diminishing return to increasing the MPG. The first time we improve MPG by 10, we save 1.67 gallons on a 100 mile trip. The next time we improve MPG by 10, we only save 0.83 gallons on the same 100 mile trip.

    It's much more intuitive to use gallons per 100 miles (or liters per 100 kilometers) as a measure of efficiency.

    The following are various Prius models expressed in both MPG and gallons per 100 miles:

    Gen 1 - 41 MPG = 2.44 gal / 100 miles
    Gen 2 - 46 MPG = 2.17 gal / 100 miles
    Gen 3 - 50 MPG = 2.00 gal / 100 miles
    Gen 4 - 52 MPG = 1.92 gal / 100 miles
    Gen 4 eco - 56 MPG = 1.79 gal / 100 miles

    Notice how easy this figure is to adjust to other distances. To figure out how many gallons per 10 miles traveled, move the decimal point to the left one time. For gallons per 1000 miles, move the decimal to the right one space.
     
    #66 Redpoint5, Apr 11, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2016
  7. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    I feel MPGe is a term EPA likes because it makes Plug_ins sound superior. also EPA Cargo Space allows claiming big cargo space, helps green cars with smaller cargo space sound good.
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    mpg works fine when you're comparing one model to another. mpge makes no sense at all.



    Merged, use multi-quote



    only if it's slightly downhill.:)
     
    #68 bisco, Apr 11, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2016
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  9. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    KWh/100 miles is also more useful!

    Calculation based on 1 gallon of gasoline = 33.7 kWh, and the US fleet mpg average is currently: 25 mpg.

    So, a 2016 Hyundai Sonata Plug-in Hybrid rated at 34 kWh/100 miles or 2.9 miles/KWh is 4x more efficient than the average or 33.7 KWh/34 KWh = 99 MPGe. 2016 Hyundai Sonata Plug-in Hybrid



     
  10. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Unfortunately, that's a little bit misleading too... since most of us use a gas/ethanol mix rather than 100% gas, which carries more energy.

    1 gallon of E10 fuel = 32.6 kWh
     
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  11. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    If it has leather and moonroof, it's "fully loaded". I've long ignored "fully loaded" on any car ad. Just tell me what it has and if you can't, then I'll skip the ad.

    It's the next gen Plug-In. But because it has a name - Prime, I think PC has just relegated "PiP" to refer to the 1st Gen.

    You can for certain European manufacturers (Volvo, BMW, Porsche and MB. Not sure if Audi does). It's called European delivery. You pay a minimal amount ($1-$2k?) which includes airfare for two, hotel for 1 or 2 nights near the factory and a factory tour. You can then drive your car around Europe (they'll give you temp plates/insurance) and when you're done your vacation, return the car to the factory and it'll be shipped to you in U.S..

    It'll be the electric efficiency. They haven't released the hybrid mpg number yet but they are targeting the same 52mpg as the standard Liftback. Estimated range is 600+ miles from the NYIAS presentation.

    Isn't the EPA using kWh/100 miles on the sticker? That's a start.
     
  12. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Yes, but sadly, it almost never gets referred to.
     
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  13. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    If we keep using it here, hopefully it'll catch on.
     
  14. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

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    Although there likely isn't a definition of "fully loaded", my understanding, and likely the understanding most have, is that fully loaded means it includes every option. It wouldn't make sense to refer to a base model as "fully loaded" since that doesn't expand the understanding of what options it has, since it's assumed that a car has at least the minimum of options.

    What does full option car mean? - Quora

    ... and I didn't realize the EPA includes kWh / 00 miles on the sticker. That's very encouraging!

    Since consumers generally haven't learned any measure of efficiency for EVs yet, now is the time to standardize on one that makes sense, otherwise we'll end up using a dumb unit of measure, like feet and inches, and be unwilling to change later on.
     
  15. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Oh I understand but just like how every housing advertisement has "rare opportunity" or "most desirable location" or "most prestigious address", "fully loaded" in a car ad means nothing to me because it's overused whether appropriate or not. I've seen base or midrange cars with "fully loaded" mentioned in the ad. A Corolla CE is sure as hell not fully loaded.
     
  16. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Sure it does, it is just a mathematical conversion of miles/kWh into miles/gallon of gas.
    It allows a relative comparison between electric and gas cars.

    kWh/100 miles is a much better method for tracking the car's own efficiency over time.
    However asking people to compare mpg to miles/kWh when comparing different cars is far more confusing.
     
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  17. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    I'm beginning to believe Prime will be a sub-class for any Toyota Vehicle, much like Limited is now. Camry Hybrid Prime is now a plug-in version of the Camry Hybrid or RAV4 Hybrid Prime. Of course the opposite doesn't exactly ring true for the Prius. There is no Prius S or Prius XLE so I'm almost sure there will be no Prius Prime LE, XLE, and Limited.
     
  18. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    there's a plug in version of the camry hybrid?
     
  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    people are easily confused. we need a whole new rating system that cuts across fuel types. a simple efficiency rating would be best.
     
  20. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Making examples of Toyota's naming conventions, possible naming conventions. :rolleyes:
     
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