Toyota Primes Its New 120MPGe Plug-in Hybrid Prius

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by Felt, Mar 27, 2016.

  1. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    88,061
    39,259
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    i think the energy quantity is the same, but the efficiency of each machine, or how it uses that energy, is what is in question.
     
    #101 bisco, Apr 12, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2016
    Felt, Zythryn and Mendel Leisk like this.
  2. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    39,781
    28,314
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Couldn't say it better.
     
  3. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2013
    1,024
    498
    0
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Fuel quality regulations vary country to country. The US has among the most consistent fuel, and quality differences between brands comes down to detergent additive packages (cleans the engine). Premium fuel has slightly less energy, but it's so close to regular that it's not worth taking into account. Seasonal changes in fuel formulation won't vary much in energy content either.

    They don't produce energy, but expend it by burning. 1 gallon of fully burned gasoline releases exactly the same amount of energy regardless of what you put it in. It's possible some engines don't completely burn the fuel, in which case some of the stored energy just gets spewed into the atmosphere unburned.
     
    Felt likes this.
  4. Felt

    Felt Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    1,624
    602
    0
    Location:
    Mountain West
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Thanks you all for the explanations.

    Now some of you may have seen this (I seem to find things later than others), but I found an interesting comparison between the Prime and the Plug-in Ioniq. I thought it was well written, and is dated 11 April, so it is fairly recent.

    hybridcars.com,
    article entitled "Which Looks More Competitive: Toyota Prius Prime, or Hyundai Ioniq Plug-in Hybrid?"
     
    Sergiospl likes this.
  5. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,860
    4,586
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    3 key differences, other than price, I've noticed that aren't mentioned are...

    - Prime will offer more seating room. Based on the in-person direct comparisons we've had so far, the back seems quite a bit smaller.

    - Prime will offer more EV power. The 65 kW (91 HP) rating is quite a bit more than the 45 kW (60 HP), not even close.

    - Prime will offer a gas-injected heat-pump. That should be much more efficient with EV winter driving than the assumed resistance type for Ioniq.
     
    Felt likes this.
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    88,061
    39,259
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    i suppose it's difficult to compare cars based on manufacturers claims. they should both be out around the same time for real road tests, epa numbers and etc.
     
    Felt likes this.
  7. PriusC_Commuter

    PriusC_Commuter Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    903
    305
    0
    Location:
    Los Angeles/ Orange County, CA
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    If it had been designed long before the gen 4 was shown, then why the heck couldn't they release both at the same time. It would have made more sense to try to pull some of the buyers who wanted the new Prius to get the more expensive Prime had they been released simultaneously.
    That's impressive, but may I ask how many days it's been since you've filled up, and what's your average daily miles?
    MPGe is a useless number for electric since it doesn't relate directly to the energy used in electric mode and confuses average consumers thinking it's some sort of blended average of gas and electricity. MPG and MPkWh is much more direct and useful (but I get not as "wow impressive" as those inflated high MPGe numbers to get people's attention).
    That's a useless number since the Corolla can't drive on electricity alone. Consumers don't care about how much energy it takes to drive, they care about how much money it costs them. Obviously with electricity this varies significantly between tiered rates, time of use rates, public charging costs (per time or per kWh) so it's difficult to give a customer an average since it highly varies based upon where one lives and uses the plug-in electric vehicles. The important numbers are how much will it cost me on electricity, and how much will it cost me when I need to run gas. Last I checked I can't purchase a "Ge" in MPGe, but I can purchase a kWh.
     
  8. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2013
    1,024
    498
    0
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    The Gen 4 has higher profit margins built in. I wouldn't be surprised if the Prime is a money looser since it's so low volume, yet has increased engineering and production costs.

    Toyota wants to maximize the amount of Gen 4 sales before they try to entice a different type of buyer with the Prime.
     
  9. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,860
    4,586
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Yes, widen appeal by reaching out to a larger audience.
     
  10. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    40,887
    12,431
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Technology
    Some manufacturers use a staggered roll out to keep interests up.

    Remember when VW would roll out a new vehicle with a 2 point slow or 2.5 litre 5 cylinder? then the 1.8T and TDI the following year? and then lastly the GTI or GLi?
     
  11. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    12,748
    3,444
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    Traditional marketing would say that the prime is strategic, and if you allocate costs correctly should produce larger margins for the whole prius line. Your type of cost allocation is reminiscent of gm bean counting, which well is one of the many reasons it lost market share and went bankrupt. The camry always had much higher margins than the prius, but the gen II prius helped pull camry sales. Dull the tech halo by counting short term beans and you forget the brand erosion.

    Engineering for the prime should benefit the liftback and if they don't cancel it the waggon (v). The prime is toyota's technical and efficiency halo, and if you skimp on engineering your halo the whole brand suffers. Why would production costs be high compared to price?
     
  12. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2013
    1,024
    498
    0
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    What percentage of Prius sales do you expect the Prime to account for? It takes a lot of extra engineering effort to develop the technology and the redesigned styling, plus certify the safety, performance, and economy. After all that, you end up with a car that won't sell in high numbers like the standard Prius. The profit margins won't be good for the vehicle because people won't buy the car if it costs a fortune, yet is only marginally better than the standard Prius.

    Toyota will have to keep the price differential between the standard Prius and the Prime close, or bribe (lobby) our corrupt politicians to dream up more ill-conceived incentives to artificially stimulate sales.
     
  13. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    12,748
    3,444
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
     
  14. KrPtNk

    KrPtNk Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2015
    323
    283
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Lac
    "There are some questionable things. The back seat and dash, to name two."

    I assume you are referring to the lack of a center rear seat and the reduction of storage space in the front dash. To me, the removal of the fifth seat and the individual bucket seats in the rear make the car more luxurious.

    I find the design of the dash without the lower glovebox more pleasing. With the larger center display, the ridge that flows from lower right up over the screen to the steering wheel is elegant. I know that my thoughts are based strictly on looks, but for now that is all I have to respond to. The car just looks more luxurious. I think a lot of buyers will find it so.
     
  15. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,860
    4,586
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Marginally better? That shouldn't even come up as an argument point. 22 miles of EV is easy to imagine the benefit of. It's large enough for simple math to cover.
     
    drash likes this.
  16. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2013
    1,024
    498
    0
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    OK, do the simple math and tell me what the break-even is on having 22 miles of EV range given your driving habits, and current fuel and electricity rates.

    My rough, back of the laptop calculation says it would likely take 30 years of ownership for a plug-in to defray the additional cost for me.
     
    #116 Redpoint5, Apr 14, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2016
  17. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    4,960
    2,977
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    I personally don't think the Prime is much of an advance over alternatives.
    However, to be fair, we don't know yet what the price will be.

    With that unknown, you can't say what the additional cost is.
     
  18. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    4,319
    1,526
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    I
    To be fair, I only see those ROI calculations used to justify attacking a vehicle. Given all the critical factors left out such as vehicle reliability, longevity, safety rating, towing options, kid hauling capacity, cold weather capability, and everything else that goes into an actual decision, I wonder why you think those calculations affect someone's decision....either way. Starting after I got my 2001 Prius, I got these "ROI" justification of why folks did not by a Prius. Unfortunately, the monster SUV they actually drove made it clear they did not bother at all with calculations like this. They bought the vehicle they wanted and then used this type of discussion as the logic to "explain to me why....whatever". Did you honestly do only this calculation to completely determine your vehicles selected or did some other factors matter?
     
    #118 FL_Prius_Driver, Apr 14, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2016
    Trollbait and Jeff N like this.
  19. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2011
    3,938
    1,351
    28
    Location:
    Florida
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    We're talking about Pay back or break even again. Can't see it if you pay for electricity/KWh; Compare Side-by-Side

     
  20. Felt

    Felt Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    1,624
    602
    0
    Location:
    Mountain West
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    I have never bought an automobile as an investment. I do not think in terms of "pay back" or "break-even."
    In the mountain west an automobile is a necessity, and I make my purchase decision on things like initial cost, maintenance, reliability, comfort, efficiency, accommodation, and appearance (many on PC say that is unimportant - it is to me).

    Excluding a home, an automobile is one of the more expensive items a person/family will purchase. When I spend that much money, I want it to be just exactly what I want in terms of accessories, color, interior, and features. Personally, I think Toyota is making a huge mistake offering so many variations and combinations (discussed elsewhere). I have a negative reaction to the principle that if you want W, you must buy X, but X in not available on Y, and Z includes V that no one wants.
     
Loading...