Toyota Primes Its New 120MPGe Plug-in Hybrid Prius

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by Felt, Mar 27, 2016.

  1. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    Toyota's defense, they said "Package" or objects grouped together! :D
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i think primes biggest problem is that there's a lift back, with price comparison. that will make it difficult to compete with other manufacturers.
     
  3. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

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    Everyone is missing the general points I have made.

    1. The profit margins on the Prius will be higher than the Prime.
    2. The reason the Prius was released before the Prime is to maximize the standard Prius sales, and to generate renewed interest in the Prius later on.
    3. You will never defray the additional cost of the Prime via fuel savings over the Prius, which is already extremely fuel efficient.
    4. The only reason why any plug-in hybrids are being made is due to California policy.

    California accounts for 55% of all plug-in sales. In Oregon, where no incentives exist for a plug-in, they are almost non-existent. I've only seen 1 other PiP in Oregon, and had to wait years to find mine on Craigslist.

    Very few people will buy the Prime if it's significantly more expensive than the Prius, considering they will never recoup the additional cost, there is 1 less seat, and the Prius is just as good in every other respect.

    I'm not comparing the Prime to other plug-ins, or SUVs, or anything else. I'm simply comparing it to it's direct competition; the Prius.

    To answer your question, I choose the Prius based on its utility as a road trip vehicle, that it can sleep 2 people over 6 feet tall in the back, fuel economy, reliability, price, and technology. I choose the PiP because it was the best condition reconstructed title Prius I had seen from CL, and I can just barely complete my work commute entirely on electricity.
     
    #123 Redpoint5, Apr 15, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
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  4. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Unless you know the price of the Prime, you simply can not conclude #1 or #3.
    They are most likely mutually exclusive, so one of those two is likely correct, and both may be correct, but you don't know.

    #2 is pure speculation (unless you are a board member?).

    #4 is false.
    It may be the reason the PiP, and other plugin hybrids that are sold in CA/Carb states only, were made.
    However that doesn't explain plugin hybrids that are sold nationwide, or that aren't sold yet in CA, such as the Outlander plugin hybrid.
     
  5. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    There are definitely supporting aspects of your points. But there are also counterpoints. Rather than say you points are 100% correct or 100% incorrect, I would rather point out some of the limitations:

    1) Car companies try to maximize overall profit, not profit margin. This strategy requires trying to maximize the mix of vehicles and adjusting each models profit margins to maximize overall profit. Does Toyota make more money with Camrys and Corollas or the F-Class Lexus vehicles? Which has the higher profit margin? (This is not stating that Toyota made good decisions about the Prime, it is stating how the Prime affects the entire Toyota bottom line is what will be evaluated.)

    2) Willing to bet a years salary on that point? For example, the availability of the batteries or some other unique component may easily be the real reason. If Li-Ion batteries were limited, then the delay may simple have been to keep new Prius production on track. Both sides of that point are unsupportable without deep internal knowledge of Toyota engineering and management constraints and strategy.

    3) This point applies to nearly every vehicle on the road, not just the Prime. It is only important to the critics and rarely to the buyers.

    4) 100%, 99%, 90%, 20%? This is one of those points putting a gray scale aspect in black and white. I see too many Plug-In Hybrids driven here in FL to conclude what you claim 100%. I will clearly concede CA rules have a major effect, but not a total effect.

    Thanks for the answer. The fact that Toyota makes a impressively reliable vehicle was (and still is) as much of a factor as the technology.
     
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  6. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Not only does Toyota make an impressively reliable vehicle, the Prime also has a rather impressive heat pump. I just read the description from InsideEVs and it looks like the most sophisticated heat pump in the automotive market. It looks to be a bit more costly, but I guess that's why they'll call it the Prime.


    iPhone ?
     
  7. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Hey I like this post by Redpoint.

    Point 4. Actually CA is 65% of PHEV last year, and by about May 15th, I can tell you %CA for 1Q2016. I hypothesize many of those 2016 Volts were sold in CA to lease companies who knew in advance that the green HOV stickers were probably going to be extended. My guess is PiP1 was 75% in CA.

    But the reason why PHEV and HEV sales are down is because the extra-subsidies for BEV over PHEV. For example, green HOV stickers are stopped in CA, but white HOV stickers are full out for BEV, So to say CA policy is helping PHEV, not BEV, is not the whole picture.
     
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  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i agree with red. i think his points are well thought out and valid. no, we don't know everything.
    personally, i think toyota makes a plug in to keep their toe in the water, in case ev's pan out against their belief, and they need to jump in at a later date.
     
  9. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

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    Florida is a CARB state. The adoption of CARB standards by many of the most populous states creates a huge incentive for companies to sell plug-in hybrid vehicles. They are classified as TZEV (transitional zero-emission vehicles), and get credit towards meeting the low emission and zero emission regulations. I wonder how popular plug-in hybrids are in Alabama?

    ... and I forgot to mention another huge factor for me buying in the Prius line; lack of belts to replace. This makes maintenance much easier since I don't have to worry about timing belts, accessory belts, and replacing the water pump when I replace the timing belt. All of the individual parts should last longer since they are electrically driven, and don't depend on engine speed for their operation.
     
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    are you sure florida is a carb state? doesn't sound like the florida i know.
     
  11. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

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    I got my info from the site I linked in the above post. There are varying levels of CARB compliance, and the site says it's a list of states that are currently, or soon to adhere to CARB rules.
     
  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    thanks. 13 listed, 'and several others' seems like an odd way to report something. i have no idea though.
     
  13. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Florida was proposed CARB but changed mind some years ago...NH. NM, AZ I think are drop-outs

    Many references show DC as CARB but I think they also never joined in the end. I always wonder where DC stands with Toyota, because it's not a state...another gray area in Toyota CARB policy. I guess DC is considered state for Clean Air Act purposes.
     
    #133 wjtracy, Apr 15, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
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  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    one thing i do know about florida, no safety of emission inspections.:p
     
  15. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    I would ask FL what types of Plug-ins he is seeing in FL? On the surface I don't know why FL would have more, except maybe trend to trendy cars in FL.
     
  16. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    I didn't think DC had any car dealers. Most of the car dealers I've seen are in Arlington, Falls Church, Temple Hills, etc.. So I guess this would make them not a CARB territory by default.


    iPad ? HD
     
  17. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Funny to think about, isn't it?
    If DC had joined CARB, which I think they decided not to, Toyota would have to allow purchase in MD to count for the CARB warranty.

    DC wants statehood (in the news today). Maybe the rule needs to be, if you wanna be state, you gotta sell cars.
     
  18. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Mostly Volts, a smattering of i3s, and a i5. I don't know that Florida has more, but the driving conditions (flat, no snow, little use of heaters) makes mpg and electric miles better than most other states and climates. As discussed above, FL is not a CARB state. The sure indicator of actual CARB status is the warranty coverage on Prius Hybrid components is 10 years in CARB states but usually 8 years in non-CARB states.
     
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  19. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Correct just look at your Toyota or Ford or GM hybrid warranty guide they will list CARB states and FL is not there I can pretty much guarantee. I read those in my spare time (but only if I am doing posts on CARB warrranty).
     
  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Structural considerations is only part of the reason. Toyota wanted to keep the Prime's fuel efficiency at the level of the gen4 Prius. The extra structure for the fifth seat would have meant not achieving that for some reason

    A la cart options are more costly for the car maker. They have to store more parts so that they are on hand if called for. The worker needs more training to ensure the ordered car is assembled with the right options. This, and checks for mistakes, likely also means the assembly time per car goes up.

    It is still available on some high priced cars, and maybe high profit pick up trucks.

    We start doing that, and people might start demanding we use metric.

    As for MPGE, it is intended for comparing cars with different energy sources; such as gasoline to electric to the electric and gasoline used by a blended PHEV. It can also be used for hydrogen, CNG, and even diesel. The window sticker has the kWh consumption figures in smaller print for those that want to know.

    The value is the energy content for a gallon of gasoline. An engine won't convert it all to useful work though. Most of it is lost as heat. The ratio between the energy in the fuel and how much is converted to work is the thermal efficiency. The new ICE in the Prius as a peak thermal efficiency of 40%, so up to 40% of the gasoline's energy could be put to use moving the car down the road.
     
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