Toyota Prius c: 53 MPG city / 46 MPG Hwy; Under $19,000

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Danny, Jan 10, 2012.

  1. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney EditProfOptInfoCustomUser Title

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    I think that assuming matching prices, the c will be the final nail in the coffin. The Insight may well have had a heart attack due to the Honda's shabby treatment of customers, but a car with the same price, better EPA ratings, more cargo volume, more rear headroom and a larger, more powerful engine that comes from a manufacturer with a better record of hybrid reliability is going to sell better.

    Although the real-world numbers for the Insight seem to be good, many people buy off the EPA ratings. Apart from the fact that it's hard to compare driver profiles of a car with limited sales to one that's more mainstream, you also need to remember that the c isn't the Gen 2 liftback.

    The c engine has the same 1.5L displacement, the c is 400lb lighter than the Gen 2 (2,500lb v 2932lb). That means it should be significantly more efficient under acceleration, and "normal driver" inefficiency is usually because of excessive acceleration. I'd expect the real-world numbers of the c comfortably to surpass those of the Gen 2, for all but heavy high-speed highway drivers.
     
  2. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    How am I supposed to know that statement literally meant YOU and not in general? But now that you brought the topic up, why is the competition so touchy about what c has to offer? Do they see this next step Toyota took as a lot bigger than they are letting on?

    In other words, what sales threshold will make them seriously shift resources to compete?

    It sure would be nice seeing this much lower priced Prius stir the industry.
    .
     
  3. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    where did this come from?

    on my last tank ~300mi 55.9MPG, since last oil change 6,400 57.9MPG (we had snow in last few days, hence last tank is lower then avg).

    BTW car and driver reported that on their long term test Insight2 MPG going down considerably due to CVT wear. This is after 15-20K. GenIII MPG after 20K is going up.
     
  4. pjay

    pjay New Member

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    Cyclopathic, do you have a link to that story? Thanks.
     
  5. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney EditProfOptInfoCustomUser Title

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    Because I was answering Tideland's question and wrote "we don't need another liftback", where liftback means the original Prius, which the c clearly isn't.

    I don't see the competition as being touchy about it. They are focused on developing hybrids but they can't compete right now. When you're selling to a market focused on efficiency you have to be close to compete. Hybrid is difficult technologically and in terms of supply.

    With the tough competition with Toyota both on efficiency and cost I think other manufacturers will continue to focus on the C and D segment where the margins are higher and there's more room to compete in other areas, such as comfort and utility. I'm also expecting manufacturers to target PHEV more, where they can grab headlines and where Toyota can't use their NiMH advantage.

    The only short-term impact I see would be if it the c took a lot of Fit sales. Then Honda might be pushed to sell a Fit Hybrid.

    To really shake up the market I think the c would have to sell over 10k, bringing a chunk of the buyers down from the C segment. I don't think that will happen, but I think there is some potential to encourage downsizing since the c is the first B segment car in the USA with attention-grabbing EPA numbers and because...

    What Gen Y wants in a car: Fuel efficiency and connectivity | The Car Tech blog - CNET Reviews

    Other manufacturers might be forced to discount more in the B segment to compete, although I'm not so sure there will be much effect. While the c brings down the cost of buying a hybrid, the cost-analysis will still only favor the Prius for higher mileage drivers. Sometimes ideals are trumped by pragmatism. I guess further discounting would hit the Nissan Versa the most: it sells by being cheap and price-cutting of other B segment cars could lose customers.

    Oh, success could have one significant benefit: accelerating the introduction of start/stop systems into the US market. They're coming, but gradually.
     
  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I think user reports on fueleconomy.gov show the same, but there is only a handful there v. fuelly's hundreds.
    Nearly all the competitors of the c have the connectivity already. We'll also see an improvement in fuel economy in the segment in the coming years. It's just a question of how much the 'hybrid premium' will be for the c.
     
  7. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney EditProfOptInfoCustomUser Title

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    FE.gov has the Gen 2 Prius at
    49.2 for 30, 46.2 for 128, 46.5 for 172, 47.6 for 143, 47.7 for 194, 47.5 for 83, from 2009 back to 2004.

    Insight is 52.8 for 1, 46.8 for 7, 46.4 for 23 from 2012 back to 2010.
     
  8. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    fuelly is showing 150 2010 Insights at 44 mpg avg

    and 150 2011 Pri's at 47.1 avg. , so Insight is a couple over and prius a couple under. No comparison in chassis though. Insight is definitely a compact.
     
  9. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

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    Well, if you want an efficient B segment car with AT+C/C+A/C+hatch MSRP is $16,500 to $17,200. (Accent to Fiesta). It's a lot of miles to make up the difference to $20,000 at current gas prices, but if you want to hedge, are a heavy city driver, a high-mileage driver or simply want to reduce gas consumption, that gap isn't too bad.

    Plus, they might be able to convince some of the Mini Cooper or Fiat 500 market that's currently over 4k sales per month.
     
  10. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Doesn't that assume buyers already in the "economy" market?

    What about those looking to hold onto to their SUV as a "recreational" vehicle but looking for a "daily driver" supplement?

    What about those who have always been interested in Prius but waited because they couldn't quite afford one?

    And of course, when more expensive gas returns, what about those looking for an efficiency solution but unwilling to consider something in the "economy" category?
    .
     
  11. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney EditProfOptInfoCustomUser Title

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    Of course, when more expensive gas returns, there would be a "dealer premium" to contend with as well.
     
  12. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Hopefully, not. At least around here, that rarely happens.
    .
     
  13. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    well certainly less discounts... but only if demand outstrips the supply.
     
  14. UsedToLoveCars

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    wind resistance increases as the square of velocity.

    a tiny change in Cd makes a big difference.
     
  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Yep CdA in the Gen II and Gen III were about the same, its only slightly higher in the prius c. I made guesses on rolling resistance, and the cross over where the prius c should be worse than the gen III prius based on cdA, weight, and tires, would be around 65mph. I could have made bad assumptions, but I'm sure someone will make a real world chart. Engine efficiency should make the efficiency cross over speed less than that though, as the gen III engine is more efficient at these speeds.
     
  16. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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  17. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    austine,

    this might help, plug the numbers: Aerodynamic & rolling resistance, power & MPG calculator - EcoModder.com

    from what I can tell the highway MPG is lower due higher resistance, the power train efficiency is about the same. Looks like the city MPG did not go up as much as it should have due to smaller battery.
     
  18. ken1784

    ken1784 SuperMID designer

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    I wrote about highway mpg...
    [email protected]
     
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  19. pjay

    pjay New Member

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  20. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Well, the car is 500 lbs lighter so the battery seem properly optimized. The battery power (26hp) output is 2 hp shy of Gen II Prius rated 48 MPG in the city.
     
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