Toyota Prius c: 53 MPG city / 46 MPG Hwy; Under $19,000

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Danny, Jan 10, 2012.

  1. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Gen2 Prius was rated 48 City / 45 Highway. Prius c is 53 City / 46 Highway. The weight difference is 390 lbs (2,890 vs. 2,500).

    Prius c gets 5 MPG more in the city due to the weight difference. 1 MPG more on the highway because it is smaller (cross-section) but the shape is not that aerodynamic (0.26 vs. 0.28).
     
  2. pakitt

    pakitt Senior Member

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    Italy uses km/L as well.

    Regarding the fact whether 53mpg is or is it not good for city, I would like to remind everybody that no car out there, except the Prius/Auris/CT200h achieve easily a fuel consumption of less than 5L/100km in real life for cars in their class. In the class of the C, it is even worse. And if you check the city fuel consumptions of small cars(that the US doesn't even get), you will be surprised and shocked of what is being sold as "city car", even from Toyota. The fuel consumption in city is *really* high they are considering overall size of the car, its weight, engine displacement, being diesel (or not), power.

    I also would like to remind my EU fellow PC users or in general anybody still obsessing about "declared fuel consumption and whether it is correct or not", that EU cycle tests, no matter how skewed and far from reality are, are made the same for all cars marketed in EU, which means that surely no car can match the numbers in real life (though I did manage with my Prius to go at or less than 4L/100km, calculated) and in absolute terms are likely "no use" compared to EPA ratings. BUT, they are excellent to compare between cars. If a Prius says 4L/100km in city, it is *surely* better than a car doing 5L/100km in city.

    I am still astounded on how many "city cars" are sold in EU, that exactly in city show the worst fuel consumption....

    A visit to Spritmonitor also will give an idea of what compromises in terms of size & HP one must do to find model that consumes closely like HSD powered cars.

    To the US guys, yes, the C does not do 60, but hey, you have been driving (and most cars still are) stuff that did 25mpg HWY at most, let's not even look at what they did in town. And let's not even touch the fuel prices compared to the rest of the planet (in Italy it has reached 1.8€/L, you do the math).
    So a C that does 53MPG City (true! since it is EPA and not EU cycle...) is simply WONDERFUL hands down!! It is a city car, that does its job!

    As a final note: Do you know what is the EU city cycle number of the iQ (the neat 12.050€ basis price, practically a 2 seater, no trunk, 1.0L "city" car; Toyota iQ. Das kompakte Stadtfahrzeug von Toyota. - The compact city car from Toyota ...a "wonderful" 46mpg-5.1L/100km!!!! and it goes up to 39mpg-6L/100km with the CVT - and all for 68HP.... so I would rather complain that Toyota is selling other nonsense city cars, and praise instead that they are now seriously managing to transfer the HSD concept to models that are actually meant to mainly be used in cities (like the C or the Yaris)...or wonderful traffic jams on highways worldwide...

    Sorry for the rant....!!!
     
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  3. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    No apology necessary, excellent post.
     
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  4. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    you are missing the point while gas is cheaper in US we drive more.. alot more. 10% of population (excluding commercial traffic) drives over 30K/48,000km a year. Avg driver drives 15K/24,000km. That is alot of miles
     
  5. pakitt

    pakitt Senior Member

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    I know that in the US you drive on average a *lot* more than elsewhere. I know what you mean. You pay cars also a *lot* cheaper than elsewhere (a BMW can cost a good 30+% less in the US as in the EU). That compensates a bit regarding fuel prices (I cannot comment on insurance or property/circulation tax as I have no idea how much what would that be in the US on average, let alone in each US state; for reference, and in Germany it is, I believe, cheaper than elsewhere, I currently pay 36€/year circulation tax and around 350€/year for insurance - not full-kasko, for that I would need about 650€/year).

    My point was about the fuel consumption in cities, that is not where US people do most of their miles (maybe?), and that is where the C is meant to be used the most (at least they market it as a city car in the US).
    By city, I don't mean highways running through them, I mean traffic lights, 30mph max, pedestrians, buses, bikes, traffic jams, etc.etc.etc. That is where you make the miles where you consume the most. A city car should therefore have there the best mpg, not necessarily on the highway....and this is exactly what the C does, and that many city cars (and in the US you really have a few till now), do not deliver at all. That was my point. When you start having 1.8€/L gas prices, even if you do 10.000km/year in city only (many EU drivers actually end up doing that), every km you can squeeze out of gas in town, is a cent saved.

    If you drive a lot out of town, traffic jams on autobahns permitting - and lately in germany autobahns look more and more city streets... ;) , then a diesel would be your best bet.

    Although on a side note, the wondrous fuel consumptions you get posted around 3-4L/100km (especially trumpeted by VW and BMW here in Germany....) are actually from EU test cycle in "suburban" settings (i.e. 90km/h) and not at 120+km/h which is often the speed limit on most EU highways, if not higher. And in that case (i.e. at 130km/h) I don't think many cars are (diesel or not) are doing much less than 5L/100km, if at all...Not to mention that then these same vehicles fall flat on their faces in city EU cycle consumption of 5L/100km or more, which means that in town, or any traffic jam, your 3.5L/100km suburban wonderful consumption will go down the drain.
    You may want to read blog post to see what I mean in a bit more details.

    PS: I do understand your pain, even with a Prius, when the price of fuel/gallon went from 1.5$ to almost 4$ - with commutes of 30-40mi or more each day, that starts to hurt - your wide spaces and spread out cities (or should I say, suburbs) do not "help". But it also does not help to have fuel at 1.4-1.8€/L, even if doing most of the km stuck in a traffic jam in a crammed EU city... :)

    PS2: if I were driving most of the time on highways in the US, I would still buy the Prius - if I were living in SF, LA or NY/Boston (put your crammed US city here), I would buy the c. Since there was no alternative that consumed less in town than the Prius (really!) that could be considered a *car* (a SmartforTwo is OK, if you never have to drive 650km back home 3-4 times a year), I had to get it, since I drive 60% of my km in city traffic. Now, I would be hard pressed, alas for a smaller car, to get a Yaris Hybrid (which will be not much different in real life consumption from the C), even if I don't really like it that much...
     
  6. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    they wish they get 5l in city :).

    My wifes Nissan Note 1.4l (88hp) gets 9.5l on average in mostly city (and not village).
    This is real life. Thats 25% more than it should be.

    And thats without start/stop systems that completely screw with EU cycle as they dont require A/C usage..
     
  7. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    hey you don't have to drive daily you have public transportation, and we mostly don't.

    Actually the worse places now are Washington DC and Chicago (tied up for 1st) LA is 3rd.

    Even in "extra urban" US Prius C makes sense. Speed limits in US are low in urban areas (55MPH/90kmh or lower on freeways, 25-40 in urbanized areas) and most of the time highways are the cemeteries you are not going any faster then in cramped euro-city.

    Pure highway miles would not be a big issue since most of the miles are daily miles anyways. My '10 Prius with 71K had seen only one out of town trip, 1Kmi total. :)
     
  8. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    4mpg combined better than the Gen 2 with a smaller battery and lighter weight is pretty impressive. Top it off with a sub $19k price tag and I think Toyota has done what Honda wished had happened with the Insight. Yes it would be nice if they could hit 55mpg city and bring the combined up to 52mpg but as it stands, those who can't afford a Prius can finally afford one and they're not losing much (in terms of hybrid technology) but going with the c. It will attract a lot of first-time and frugal buyers.


    The argument about Prius vs. Prius c is like comparing the Yaris to the Camry Hybrid. Similar mileage but different targeted buyer.
     
  9. DeadPhish

    DeadPhish Senior Member

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    The c is directed toward a different crowd. It's gotta be something new and unique,, not a reworked version of Mom and Dad's 2005 Gen II.

    The fact that it has the same basic guts as the 2005 Gen II means that the R&D cost is next to nothing. That cost was paid off in 2008. But from an exterior pov and interior trappings it's all new for an all new clientele.

    Reworking a Gen II and selling it as something All New has FAIL written all over it.
     
  10. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    I look at the gas mileage with a simple calculation. At $3.50 a gallon, a mile of 50mpg costs 7 cents to drive and at 55mpg, each mile would have cost 6.36 cents. Is this right?
    .
     
  11. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    The sheetmetal, psd, seats, etc are all different, but they expect 12,000/mo just in japan. That covers a lot of NRE and tooling. I'm sure it is less expensive to build than the gen II.

    That is right, but most understand that maintenance, depreciation, and insurance are also costs. That makes the $100/year you would save look very small. Still using less gas is a good thing that many of us are willing to pay for.
     
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  12. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    exactly, it has nothing to do with Prius G2... even engine itself is 70% different.
    And based on completely different platform and vehicle.
     
  13. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    If we calculate cost of fuel over regular Yaris (35 mpg vs 50mpg), over 100,000 miles (lifetime of the vehicle), cost savings are $3k if price is $3.5/gallon.

    So it quite pays for itself.

    Obviously if you sell it after 50k miles or so, you will still save some money and plus you will get much better resale price as well.
     
  14. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney EditProfOptInfoCustomUser Title

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    For some people the gas savings would be better than that.

    Just like the Prius, it won't really pay for itself for the average driver, when you take everything else into account. But, at $20k+tax* it now gives more people the opportunity to pay a little significantly to reduce their fuel consumption along with hedging against rising fuel costs.

    And, something I really haven't seen anybody mention, but because the battery has significantly fewer cells it should be cheaper to replace and fuel savings for anyone doing a reasonable number of miles are more likely to be greater than the replacement costs. As long as they aren't stressing the pack any more than in the p that gives a further advantage in long-term ownership costs.

    I also hope the Canadians get the c at reasonable cost. With their higher fuel prices and greater acceptance of smaller vehicles there's an opportunity if they don't price buyers out of the market as they've done with the Prius p.

    * My guess for the "Two" that'll have cruise and 1 door SKS bundled together, maybe with something else.
     
  15. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    100,000mi lifetime? some of us call it a 2 year old car
     
  16. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    well even better then :).

    But I feel people dont take account used car value when they calculate the cost of ownership, and they should...

    with that and 19k price vs 15-18k for yaris, it is easy choice to make. Plus it is slightly larger car anyway.
     
  17. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    That is not right. Remember the study that said the Prius lasts 80k miles ?

    :D
     
  18. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    That would require 'rithmetic, which has become a vanishing resource in Merika.

    That said, you did not include opportunity costs, and future value of a used car is only a guess.
     
  19. Codyroo

    Codyroo Senior Member

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    I will say I was disappointed when I saw the combined mileage was the same as the Gen III, however by reading through the posts here, I have a better understanding of why my expectations were flawed.

    However, Pakitt raised a good point, how many of us run into slow and go traffic or stop in go traffic on the highway? For folks that don't get the opportunity to cruise at an unimpeded highway speed, this car could get even better mileage than the Gen III. It appears that the lighter weight and smaller engine will be an advantage at the slower speeds (city driving as well as reduced speed/congested highway driving).

    In the end, we'll see what people post up here, Fuelly, and other sites as to their real world mileage. While our expectations that a number approaching 60 on the piece of paper in the window weren't met, the real test is what the car does in real life. And we don't have that data yet.
     
  20. Skoorbmax

    Skoorbmax Senior Member

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    Simply, one would need their head examined if they bought a Honda Insight over this thing.
     
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