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Toyota Reveals Concerns on Prius Conversions

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by priusFTW, Jun 29, 2007.

  1. MikeSF

    MikeSF Member

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    I'm curious how/why? If you use batteries more why would it make more pollution? Is is because the engine doesn't get a chance to warm up? If so why do they have an EV button on Japanese & European models? They don't care as much for pollution in those regions?

    Isn't this true with ANY conversion that you do to a car? Whether it's internal or cosmetic? And doesn't Toyota sell a car that's marketed specifically so that you can "modify" the way it looks (aka structure)? (ahem.. Scion)

    While some of these concerns are valid, as mentioned this guy is Toyota's lobbyist plain and simple. They know that the individual can't crash test all their mods because they don't have the funding to do so, Toyota wants to be the only dog out there, so they're trying to pull the incentives away from potentially making others able to do these things.
     
  2. aeronaut

    aeronaut New Member

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    As has been said before, this is almost all CYA stuff, in the event that someone gets hurt in a crash with a converted Prius (and that includes people in the vehicle that the Prius crashes into, ....)

    The point about lead acid conversions adding weight is legitimate, and a heavier Prius would do more damage to a Civic, Yaris, Free, Smart Car, or other teeny car in an accident.

    However, lithium ion (Li-Ion) and lithium polymer (Li-Poly) batteries are much lighter than nickel metal hydride (Ni-Mh) batteries (the current Pruis battery for the EV system.) Their point that these could add weight is BS - one can store about 4 times the energy of Ni-Mh cells with the same weight of Li-Ion or Li-Poly cells.

    Remember that the name Prius comes from the Latin for "that which comes before." I fully expect the next generation of Priuses (Prii, or the proper Priora,) to have Li-Ion batteries (with Li-Poly to come later, unless there's a better new battery tech they haven't discovered yet,) and be pluggable. Also note that most of their objections to conversions in this memo will not in any way affect their future plans. They gloss over the risk of Li-Ion thermal runaway, simply stating that these batteries can catch fire, because it's one they will have to deal with in 3-4 years themselves. They will install some simple heat reduction system, and say that covers the objections in this memo.

    In short, this memo should be ignored. If you want to get a conversion, do your homework, make sure it's safe and doesn't add so much weight that you scrape your bumper every time you drive over a speedbump at more than 3 mph, and doesn't break your budget. Expect that the same or a better conversion will be available a year later for about 2/3 the price (kinda like computers that way.)

    I would have loved to wait for a plug in version with a range of 30 miles in pure EV mode (or perhaps better,) but I needed a new car. This is clearly the direction the technology is heading, barring a massive discovery of oil in the US or a close ally, driving the price of gas way down. But I needed a new car now, so I bought a Prius - picked it up 6/28/07 (Thursday.) I don't plan on doing a conversion in the near future - if I wanted to be on the bleeding edge, I could have robbed a bank and bought a Tesla roadster.

    That said, I'm glad that there are people doing these conversions. They are clearly being watched by Toyota (this memo is obviously a response to them.) Also note that many of the conversions for older Priora are now available as options. For example, my touring edition with package #2 includes a rear view camera, stiffer suspension, and MP3/iPod compatability (or at least has a jack for the iPod, instead of requiring a radio or casette converter.) All of these are conversions for older Priora. The existence, and more importantly, commercial success, of conversions will drive Toyota (pun intended) to produce their own plug in version with more range.

    Regards,
    aeronaut
     
  3. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    CalCar's response (a leading converter of Prius to PHEVs):
    (note: minimally edited to remove redundant content)
    <div align="center">For the first time, we have a statement revealing what Toyota thinks
    about hybrid conversions. So far, over 50 Priuses have been
    "green-tuned" (see <http://www.calcars.org/where-phevs-are.html>),
    using perhaps a dozen different engineering methods and batteries, by
    a broad range of companies, groups and individuals. See
    <http://www.calcars.org/howtoget.html> for a list of who's who in the
    conversion world. The quick summary: availability is extremely
    limited; the opportunity for volume deliveries remains a future
    possibility. Meanwhile, one company is getting the most attention for
    fleet sales; one is doing a few conversions for individuals; others
    are slowly ramping up, and the "do-it-yourself" solution is almost
    ready for prime time.

    CalCars values conversions because they increase awareness and
    support for PHEVs. At the same time, they offer a partial response to
    the intense demand for PHEVs from people who can't believe we have to
    wait for years for something we should already have. Our strategic
    goal in promoting conversions is to motivate, pressure and
    incentivize carmakers to build PHEVs. Of course, once automakers
    finally do sell PHEVs, there will also be many hundreds of thousands
    of hybrid candidates for safe, affordable, warranted retrofits.

    DELAY AT TOYOTA AFFECTS CONVERSION OPPORTUNITY
    Now Toyota has decided to push back by six months its introduction of
    the 2009 Prius, to defer use of lithium-ion batteries, and we infer,
    to delay even the consideration of introducing a PHEV. So betting on
    who will be first to introduce a PHEV now shifts to GM, and perhaps
    to Ford, Malcolm Bricklin's Visionary Vehicles and others. At the
    same time, public institutions ranging from the US Department of
    Energy to the California Air Resources Board and the Climate Action
    Registry are considering how to evaluate, credit and incentivize
    PHEVs built both by carmakers and aftermarket converters. The
    prospect of having to wait years for PHEVs from carmakers means a
    wider "window of opportunity" -- and an even larger need for
    after-market conversions.

    Until today, Toyota has publicly said simply that conversions would
    affect the warranty of Priuses. (See
    <http://www.calcars.org/calcars-news/683.html>.) Hybrids have
    multiple warranties; presumably the one that would be involved is the
    emissions system, including the battery, electronics and motor. The
    issue has not yet come up. Meanwhile, owners of converted cars get
    gold-plated service from their dealers, who find themselves liking
    demonstrations of how much better a hybrid can perform than the stock model.

    CONGRESSIONAL ACTION UPS THE ANTE
    Last week, PHEVs were key subjects of amendments developed by the
    Senate Finance Committee. (See
    <http://www.calcars.org/calcars-news/776.html>.) Incentives provided
    to PHEV buyers included conversions. Unfortunately, these amendments
    were ultimately not added to the Senate's Energy Bill. But they could
    still find their way in through activity on the House side. Current
    proposals under active consideration include substantial multi-city
    demonstration fleets using conversions.

    The Finance Committee amendments prompted a semi-public response by
    Toyota. Below we reproduce Toyota's memo sent to the Senate Finance
    Committee staff on June 20. This memo may have contributed to the
    scaling down of conversion incentives when the original texts of the
    provisions were modified and adopted.

    We hope that our publicizing this document, followed by some of our
    responses, as well as the actual text of the amendment language, will
    contribute to the dialogue within the aftermarket community, and will
    help automakers gauge the impact of the conversion movement on their
    own product development plans and timetables. And we hope even the
    fact that we're talking about this will highlight the larger point:
    Our large international car companies are the ones who should be
    resolving the issues raised -- they can do the job right!

    FULL TEXT OF TOYOTA'S MEMO "PHEV CONVERSIONS"
    [snip] See OP for text of this section

    OUR GENERAL COMMENTS
    * It's important to distinguish between the first prototypes, not
    crash-tested, and the installed conversions aftermarket companies
    expect to sell to consumers in high volumes in the future.
    * As is evident in the proposed legislation, the bill's definition of
    "qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle" means they must meet
    environmental, as well as National Highway Traffic Safety
    Administration (NTSA) and Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards
    (FMVSS) crash testing standards in order to qualify for any credits.
    Toyota's objections will not apply to eligible vehicles.
    * No conversions we are aware of "hack into" the Engine Control Module.
    * Many of the emerging conversion designs now expect to retain the
    spare tire. For those that don't, it's worth noting that Honda, GM
    and other carmakers sell some models with no spare.
    * Some conversion companies are using lithium batteries with
    chemistries that are fire-resistant. Others are engineering their
    packs with electrical and mechanical measures for isolating and
    suppressing, without vehicle-level damage, any incident caused by
    standard lithium batteries. (This is what Tesla Motors has already
    done and crash-tested.)
    * Makers of chargers are applying for UL certification.
    * The Argonne tests refer to cold-start emissions before the
    catalytic converter has warmed up. Aftermarket companies expect to
    incorporate technical solutions to keep the system warm.
    * In saying conversions could make cars "dirtier," Toyota doesn't
    mention CO2 emissions, where PHEVs come out way ahead of non-hybrids
    and, depending on the energy mix of the electricity, are as good as
    or far better than hybrids. (In its ads for its hybrids, Toyota
    focuses on NOx and HC rather than the greenhouse gas emissions that
    are increasingly taking center stage in discussions of environmental
    impacts of cars -- and that are directly correlated to MPG.
    * Finally, not a comment on Toyota, but on the amendments (texts
    follow): both versions allow incentives only for conversions
    completed by 2009 or 2010. This would seriously limit the
    incentivization of aftermarket converters to ramp up production,. It
    does not address the benefit of converting the many nearly-new
    hybrids that will remain on the roads for more than a decade to come.

    ORIGINALLY PROPOSED IN THE FREEDOM ACT:
    (B) Conversion Kits-
    (1) IN GENERAL- Section 30B of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986
    (relating to alternative motor vehicle credit) is amended by
    redesignating subsections (i) and (j) as subsections (j) and (k),
    respectively, and by inserting after subsection (h) the following new
    subsection:
    (i) Plug-in Conversion Credit-
    (1) IN GENERAL- For purposes of subsection (a), the plug-in
    conversion credit determined under this subsection with respect to
    any motor vehicle which is converted to a qualified plug-in electric
    drive motor vehicle is the lesser of--
    (A) an amount equal to--
    (i) $2,000, plus
    (ii) $400 for each kilowatt hour of capacity of the plug-in
    traction battery module installed in such vehicle in excess of 2.5
    kilowatt hours, or
    (B) 50 percent of the cost of the plug-in traction battery
    module installed in such vehicle as part of such conversion.
    (2) LIMITATIONS- The amount of the credit allowed under this
    subsection shall not exceed $4,000 with respect to the conversion of
    any motor vehicle.
    (3) DEFINITIONS AND SPECIAL RULES- For purposes of this subsection--
    (A) QUALIFIED PLUG-IN ELECTRIC DRIVE MOTOR VEHICLE- The
    term qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle' means any new
    qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle (as defined in section
    30D©, determined without regard to paragraphs (4) and (6) thereof).
    (B) PLUG-IN TRACTION BATTERY MODULE- The term plug-in
    traction battery module' means an electro-chemical energy storage
    device which--
    (i) has a traction battery capacity of not less than 2.5 kilowatt hours,
    (ii) is equipped with an electrical plug by means of which it
    can be energized and recharged when plugged into an external source
    of electric power,
    (iii) consists of a standardized configuration and is mass produced,
    (iv) has been tested and approved by the National Highway
    Transportation Safety Administration as compliant with applicable
    motor vehicle and motor vehicle equipment safety standards when
    installed by a mechanic with standardized training in protocols
    established by the battery manufacturer as part of a nationwide
    distribution program, and
    (v) is certified by a battery manufacturer as meeting the
    requirements of clauses (i) through (iv).
    © CREDIT ALLOWED TO LESSOR OF BATTERY MODULE- In the case of
    a plug-in traction battery module which is leased to the taxpayer,
    the credit allowed under this subsection shall be allowed to the
    lessor of the plug-in traction battery module.
    (D) CREDIT ALLOWED IN ADDITION TO OTHER CREDITS- The credit
    allowed under this subsection shall be allowed with respect to a
    motor vehicle notwithstanding whether a credit has been allowed with
    respect to such motor vehicle under this section (other than this
    subsection) in any preceding taxable year.
    (4) TERMINATION- This subsection shall not apply to
    conversions made after December 31, 2010.'.
    (2) CREDIT TREATED AS PART OF ALTERNATIVE MOTOR VEHICLE CREDIT-
    Section 30B(a) of such Code is amended by striking and' at the end
    of paragraph (3), by striking the period at the end of paragraph (4)
    and inserting , and', and by adding at the end the following new paragraph:
    (5) the plug-in conversion credit determined under subsection (i).'.
    (3) NO RECAPTURE FOR VEHICLES CONVERTED TO QUALIFIED PLUG-IN
    ELECTRIC DRIVE MOTOR VEHICLES- Paragraph (8) of section 30B(h) of
    such Code is amended by adding at the end the following: , except
    that no benefit shall be recaptured if such property ceases to
    eligible for such credit by reason of conversion to a qualified
    plug-in electric drive motor vehicle.'

    REDUCED INCENTIVE VERSION THAT WAS IN FINANCE COMMITTEE AMENDMENT
    (Small language changes, but the main difference is the lower credit
    amount and a shorter applicability window)
    (B) Conversion Kits.--
    (1) IN GENERAL.--Section 30B (relating to alternative motor
    vehicle credit) is amended by redesignating subsections (i) and (j)
    as subsections (j) and (k), respectively, and by inserting after
    subsection (h) the following new subsection:
    (i) Plug-in Conversion Credit.--
    (1) IN GENERAL.--For purposes of subsection (a), the plug-in
    conversion credit determined under this subsection with respect to
    any motor vehicle which is converted to a qualified plug-in electric
    drive motor vehicle is an amount equal to 10 percent of the cost of
    the plug-in traction battery module installed in such vehicle as part
    of such conversion.
    (2) LIMITATIONS.--The amount of the credit allowed under
    this subsection shall not exceed $2,500 with respect to the
    conversion of any motor vehicle.
    (3) DEFINITIONS AND SPECIAL RULES.--For purposes of this subsection--
    (A) QUALIFIED PLUG-IN ELECTRIC DRIVE MOTOR VEHICLE.--The
    term qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle' means any new
    qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle (as defined in section
    30D©, determined without regard to paragraphs (4) and (6) thereof).
    (B) PLUG-IN TRACTION BATTERY MODULE.--The term plug-in
    traction battery module' means an electro-chemical energy storage
    device which--
    (i) has a traction battery capacity of not less than 2.5
    kilowatt hours,
    (ii) is equipped with an electrical plug by means of which
    it can be energized and recharged when plugged into an external
    source of electric power,
    (iii) consists of a standardized configuration and is mass produced,
    (iv) has been tested and approved by the National Highway
    Transportation Safety Administration as compliant with applicable
    motor vehicle and motor vehicle equipment safety standards when
    installed by a mechanic with standardized training in protocols
    established by the battery manufacturer as part of a nationwide
    distribution program, and
    (v) is certified by a battery manufacturer as meeting the
    requirements of clauses (i) through (iv).
    © CREDIT ALLOWED TO LESSOR OF BATTERY MODULE.--In the case
    of a plug-in traction battery module which is leased to the taxpayer,
    the credit allowed under this subsection shall be allowed to the
    lessor of the plug-in traction battery module.
    (D) CREDIT ALLOWED IN ADDITION TO OTHER CREDITS.--The credit
    allowed under this subsection shall be allowed with respect to a
    motor vehicle notwithstanding whether a credit has been allowed with
    respect to such motor vehicle under this section (other than this
    subsection) in any preceding taxable year.
    (4) TERMINATION.--This subsection shall not apply to
    conversions made after December 31, 2009.''.
    (2) CREDIT TREATED AS PART OF ALTERNATIVE MOTOR VEHICLE
    CREDIT.--Section 30B(a) is amended by striking and'' at the end
    of paragraph (3), by striking the period at the end of paragraph (4)
    and inserting , and'', and by adding at the end the following new
    paragraph:
    (5) the plug-in conversion credit determined under subsection (i).''.
    (3) NO RECAPTURE FOR VEHICLES CONVERTED TO QUALIFIED PLUG-IN
    ELECTRIC DRIVE MOTOR VEHICLES.--Paragraph (8) of section 30B(h) is
    amended by adding at the end the following: , except that no
    benefit shall be recaptured if such property ceases to be eligible
    for such credit by reason of conversion to a qualified plug-in
    electric drive motor vehicle.''
    © Effective Date.--The amendments made by this section shall
    apply to property placed in service after December 31, 2007, in
    taxable years beginning after such date

    -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
    Felix Kramer [email protected]
    Founder California Cars Initiative
    http://www.calcars.org
    http://www.calcars.org/news-archive.html
     
  4. apriusfan

    apriusfan New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aeronaut @ Jun 30 2007, 10:42 AM) [snapback]470648[/snapback]</div>
    Actually, gas prices in the U.S. are more a function of refinery capacity than the price of oil. With all of the consolidation in the refinery business, there is no incentive to build more refineries because adding more capacity will only be counterproductive.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aeronaut @ Jun 30 2007, 10:42 AM) [snapback]470648[/snapback]</div>
    Which is why I am hoping the Volt is a raging success. The only thing that will motivate Toyota will be the risk of a competitor gaining an advantage on them.
     
  5. Gadgetdad

    Gadgetdad New Member

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    <_< :D Toyota wants to sell cars! If I install a plug-in system, I'm less likely to buy the new generation of Prius and just keep my 07 till the paint falls off! I could see Toyota dangling the plug-in carrot in front of the loyal Prius buyers for years.

    A plug in conversion using Lithium-ion for less than $5000. That bolts securely in the spare tire well or that huge compartment above it, will have me and 100's of others lining up at their install shops.

    Lee
     
  6. apriusfan

    apriusfan New Member

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  7. ruaqt

    ruaqt Junior Member

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    I am a big fan of the plugin technology as our driving entails many short trips. Under these circumstances the car never warms to normalization and therefore has more emissions and consumes more fuel.

    Whether to convert to plugin Prius will depend on the availability of alternatives. At the moment there are few and they are expensive.

    In about three years time there will be many more alternatives and my Prius will have accumulated many more miles. The car will still have some useful years left and will therefore have value. I think I would be better served to sell my Prius and to buy a car designed with the new technology especially given the limitations of the EV motor capabilities of the current Prius. Even with unlimited battery capability the electric motors were not intended to provide 100% of the torque.

    Perhaps Toyota will develop a better plugin type car. A parallel/series hybrid that can comfortably operate as an EV for the distance demanded by the market. The Volt is furiously being developed by GM and I believe if they make it, there will be many variants and other manufacturers that follow.
     
  8. apriusfan

    apriusfan New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ruaqt @ Jul 1 2007, 12:44 PM) [snapback]471121[/snapback]</div>
    Nothing like competition to motivate corporate action....
     
  9. bobdavisnpf

    bobdavisnpf Member

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    I agree with ACD. All these concerns are legitimate, and I don't think they are all being addressed.

    The suspension, for instance: Toyota points out we'll be adding a lot more weight to the rear end. And there are no suspension kits on the market to support extra weight: the only Prius mods available are to lower it and stiffen it for racing. I've seen no clues as to how the TRD Sportivo or the Touring setups would handle the extra load.

    The only comment that strikes me as easy to deal with is the spare. Any of us can add run-flats anytime we feel like it.

    But... as Felix Kramer mentions, reading Toyota's message has got me thinking a lot more about waiting for our own Big 3 and less about upgrading our existing Prii.
     
  10. Elephanthead

    Elephanthead Junior Member

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    I think Toyota would sell a plug in if they had one, obviously converting a Prius is not as good as designing a plug in from the ground up, but it may be the best option available right now. These are some serious modifications, and Toyota is right to be concerned. They don't want their customer to get killed, only Tabacco sellers kill off their customers.
     
  11. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    this is mostly a statement saying that Toyota does not support aftermarket conversions.... sooo....is that supposed to be news?