Toyota signing on to lawsuit opposing emission standards - ouch!

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by John Buddy, Oct 31, 2019.

  1. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    You do realize there are about 40 million people here and we are the 5th largest GDP if we were a stand alone nation;).

    Hard to ignore:cool:.

    Particularly for a corporation looking to make money, there is opportunity (y).
     
  2. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    The fact that they haven’t pulled out should inform you as to the size of this tail relative to the dog. Beyond that, it would cost a fortune to get back into California if they were to pull out now. The politics can turn around very quickly relative to that big of a commitment.
     
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  3. vvillovv

    vvillovv Active Member

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    It's be interesting to see which dogs (car manufactures) started wagging their tales at the Cali dog! LOL

    edit: I know it didn't take me twenty minutes to think up and type that line.
     
    #23 vvillovv, Nov 1, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
  4. John321

    John321 Active Member

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    "California has every right to do what they want and manufactures have every right to tell them goodbye don't call us we will call you if we ever want to do business in your state again"

    Many businesses leave California each year because of their high tax rate.

    If every major automaker refused to sell cars in California they would immediately change their emission laws.

    If you are an automaker and don't want to meet their emission standards don't sell cars there . Focus on other areas to increase sales in those states.
    .
    If California consumers demand the same car selection as other states let them give their lawmakers this feedback.



    If California wants to enact separate stringent emissions regulations more power to them. There are consequences to decisions and maybe that means a much narrower selection of vehicles in that state. Maybe that would stimulate an explosion of electric vehicle sales in that state while stimulating experimentation and research in that area.

    I don't see a problem.

    Any auto manufacturer who wants to sell there needs to conform to their standard. If you think that standard is unacceptable don't sell there.

    California and maybe a couple of other states are minor problems. The rest of the US is open to the auto manufactures.
    Sell new cars in the majority of the US and let the other states find manufactures to sell in their states. Something tells me if that was to happen these states would almost immediately conform to the national standard after much weeping, gnashing of teeth and of course lawsuits and also much protesting and hyperbole.

    If auto manufactures cater and cave in to individual states and their regulations they have no one but themselves and their greed to blame. States have a right to set their laws- there are also sometimes consequences to this freedom.
     
    #24 John321, Nov 1, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
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  5. frodoz737

    frodoz737 Top Wrench

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    For daily drivers it's all about high reliability and low TCO...so I buy Toyota. Politics and BS has nothing to do with my decision to buy any vehicle.
     
  6. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    California regulations are lax compared to many other countries.
    Also, there are about a dozen other states that have adopted California’s regulations.
    If some automakers want to back out of California, that is their right.
    And it is my right not to buy their cars.
     
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  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    business people are usually smart enough to make their views known in congress, not in the marketplace. i think that is the point of this thread
     
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  8. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    And each corporation of size had a political action group;).

    So they’re well represented (y)
     
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  9. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    no business wants to lose the cali market, and cali knows it. the best they can do is lobby for lower thresholds.

    that still leaves me stumped with the few companies who backed cali
     
  10. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    Probably a “stay bonus”;).

    But they’re already at the table, so I appreciate their attempt to keep our state honest(y).
     
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  11. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    It'll be fun to see what happens when Tesla offers twice the torque, the ability to power most all of the equipment on your job site and you never have to buy fuel again...

    If Tesla executes trucks in the way they executed the Model 3 these garbage fuel efficiency standards the lawsuit argues for will be a moot point.

    Before the Model 3, luxury car makers weren't at all concerned at about Tesla, but now every last one of them has been punched in the face and realizes they have a lot of catching up to do.

    The truck market is probably even more vulnerable than the luxury car market too. Would be so funny if they won their stupid lawsuit but end up financially crippled because every truck owner suddenly wants advance vehicle technology packing massive amount of kilo-watts they can make use at work and never has to waste hundreds of dollars a weeks on fuel. Toyota will very much deserve that punch in the face once Tesla truck production ramps up to capacity in a couple years.
     
  12. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Wanna know how I know you haven’t spent much (or any) time in California?
     
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  13. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    What Cali is doing is not reducing emissions - NOx HC and CO are essentially zero
    What Cali is saying we mandate electric cars, becuase we say BEV is better for climate change??? Really? And we should stop using oil. And the issue is, they are forcing auto industry to retool their whole plants and R&D to do that, and that should be national level decision. It will be interesting to see, when Dems get back in charge in DC, if they take unilateral power off of Cali, or continue to let Dem states run amok over national laws (anarchy).
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    • Honda's cars have generally been fuel efficient; they don't make an engine larger than a V6.
    • Ford and VW are expanding into plug ins. Ford will have the Escape hybrid to help balance out the F150 sales, which is generally efficient for a full size truck.
    • BMW and Mercedes have improved their CAFE numbers in post #11, and Europe is pushing lower carbon emissions.

    Most of the world is pushing better fuel economy and/or have high fuel prices. California's target MPG, which is a little lower than the original EPA, is more in line with them. These companies are probably thinking agreeing with Ca means they can spread that R&D costs out over more product.

    For those supporting the Feds.
    • FCA has the lowest CAFE of any company. They've cancelled all their small cars.
    • GM isn't much better, and they cancelled their hybrids and small diesels.
    • Nissan isn't known for fuel efficiency. I think Mitsubishi is pulling them up.
    • Toyota's pick ups are some of the least efficient on the market. Except for a special edition, high performance F150, the Tundra is the worst. It is the same with full size SUVs. Except for the hybrids, most of their other offerings don't stand out in terms of efficiency. They have ownership in Mazda and Subaru, so they are following along.
    Hyundai/Kia are the mystery to me. Their CAFE is on the high side. Do they have larger SUVs coming out?

    Toyota did move out of California. Moving your headquarters or factory out is far different than leaving the market. Which companies have actually stopped selling in California by choice?
    China has decided to do this, and they bought about 10 million more cars than the US in 2018. Companies aren't forced to do business there, they chose to do so, and they are free to leave China or California if they want too. GM left Europe.
     
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  15. John321

    John321 Active Member

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    In the late 1970's I spent 30 days staying on a ranch in California with my friend from the military, His family owned a ranch there. While there I was privileged to travel and view many of California's beautiful Natural resources. The ranch was located in rural California outside Sacramento.

    My sister in law is from right outside old Beale Air Force base (Marysville) in California where my brother met her when he was stationed there for 12 years.

    When I worked for Toyota I would often be sent to the Nummi Plant in California to help with projects there. We would stay in Fremont California and on the weekends travel to San Francisco to take in the sights and enjoy places like the Pier. We always looked forward to these trips.

    Also have been blessed with the experience of working with a number of workers who moved to our Plant when the Nummi California Plant shut down and hearing their stories and opinions while working by their side.

    Articles on the number of companies leaving California and reasons why
    https://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/news/2018/12/13/1-800-companies-left-california-in-a-year-with.html

    Business Exodus From California Is More Troubling Than Sanctuary Policies

    Article on why people are leaving California
    https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/californians-doing-the-once-unthinkable-leaving-california/


    Article on why Norhern California is trying to secede from Southern California and start their own state
    Northern California County Board Votes For Secession From State – CBS San Francisco

    Example of a product Not For Sale in California made by a California Company (there are many other examples) Look at the not for sale in California disclaimer at the top of the .pdf
    https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/www.agrian.com/pdfs/Organic_BioLink_Cal_Plus_6_Calcium_Label4.pdf



    "California has every right to do what they want and manufactures have every right to tell them goodbye don't call us we will call you if we ever want to do business in your state again"

    I support California's state rights to run their state as they want.

    I think California is filled with wonderful people who have every right to decide how to run their state.
     
    #35 John321, Nov 2, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
  16. Ronald Doles

    Ronald Doles Member

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    Because California is the largest segment of the automotive market in North America. Californian's buy 2 million cars per year and the 13 states that follow CARB probably double that. If you were a business, would you drop your biggest customer?
     
    #36 Ronald Doles, Nov 2, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    More than that. New York is a CARB state, and other more populous states are members. They make up about 40% of the auto market, which is about 6.8 million sales. Pulling out of California over emissions means pulling out of them.
     
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  18. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The other One Percenter.....

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    Right now that’s still a napkin drawing....and all of the hurtles that apply to BEVs will apply to trucks as well.
    Yeah.
    Urban commuters will buy them because they’re city bound and it will be worth it not to be stuck in an itty bitty sedan looking at truck bumpers in city traffic, but 300 mile ranges look different in big sky country....AND towing big means you have to BE big.
    BEVs are heavy and they will lend themselves to towing quite well BUT they will require bigger everything else and more batteries and this will not be as cost effective for a little while longer.

    Trucks are usually more expensive than cars, and there’s usually more profit margin, and there’s a LOT MORE of them.
    I’m thinking that if rural electrification worked for trucks at present then there would be a few more of them out there.

    It’s like L5.
    Yeah....it’s gonna happen....Luddites notwithstanding.

    BUT it’s gonna be a “bit” longer than the EVangelists think.
     
  19. Diemaster

    Diemaster Active Member

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    This is not true.

    From 2003 to 2011 they had a contract to manufacture Indy cars with 3.5L V8's in them. Mugen (Honda) had a V8 in a show car, the KB1, But that stayed a prototype. but i have yet to see a production street car with a V8 in it.
     
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  20. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Lol... You sound like someone who works in management for a soon to be bankrupt Detroit truck maker... Just a Napkin drawing? Are you serious?

    "The electric car maker was originally scheduled to launch the truck this summer but the CEO now says a November release date is “most likely”. The Tesla pickup truck is intended to fill the gap between its all-electric car range and the battery-powered Tesla Semi truck that was unveiled in November 2017." Elon Musk says Tesla pick-up truck coming in November | The Independent
     
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