Toyota: Solid-State Batteries by 2020

When they say "3-4 times better", I wonder what they actually mean. Energy density? Specific energy? Power output? And most important......cost.
If I'm not mistaken....there is a virtuous upward cycle whereby if you double energy density, then even if those cells cost 50% more, you are still coming out ahead, because you'd need less than half as many for a given EV distance, after factoring in reduced weight.
Maybe this is a misdirection from Toyota, and they are waiting for the EV-95 battery patent, shelved by Chevron, to expire end of 2014? It seems that would be the path to truly affordable PHEV's, since they beat Li-Ion in cost, and the higher specific power output offsets the modest weight gain.
One can hope

 

My guess? These are some form of lithium polymer (lithium ion that uses gel or solid electrolyte). We have had these for about 2 decades.

One problem with these types of batteries is they don't work well in very low temperatures. That may require a liquid or resistance conditioning circuit. This is not really a problem in a phev. When compared to the power to volume of the current prius phv battery, a lithium polymer might get 3 -4 times the power in the same space. That really could help with regen braking. The goal seems to get cost to the car makers down to $200-$300 /kwh which definitely seems doable in the near future. My laptop has a lithium polymer battery, so does the sonata hybrid. I'm sure toyota is talking about a different chemistry, but these things are not that far out in the future. Lithium air will take a long time to make it from the lab to cars, I would say at least a decade.

 

+1

Its an urban myth that these ovonics cells are so much better. The tesla pack in the current rav 4 ev, are much better than the ovonics cells in the original rav4 ev. We have an apples to apples comparison available.

 

+2
I am thinking the old (Chevron) patent issue on large format NiMH is dead now that Li batts are king. I am dubious Toyota would officially say something like that article purported.

 

Can't yet to see what they come up with! Google

 

Thanks that confirms that solid state means they are working on a lithium polymer battery (which is a form of lithium ion). Since it is so far out there, seven year it must be significantly different than current lithium polymer. I am thinking the 3 to 4 times is for the batery pack. In the prius phv the 4.4kwh is 80 kg or 55 wh/kg. I would expect this new pack to be at least 3x or 165 wh/kg. The 41.8 kwh battery pack in the rav 4 ev weighs 380 kg or 110 wh/kg. That makes the 165 wh/kg definitely doable. A start up using US government research and partially funded by gm has a battery pack with 200 wh/kg working in the lab. Let's say we want a 8 kwh for the 2020 prius phv to give a 25 mile aer range (scaling from the c-max and volt). That pack at 165wh/kg would weigh 49 kg, much lighter than the 11 mile pack in the current pip. It also would likely be able to supply 100 hp of power electrically to the motors. That would be a huge improvement. I'm thinking that that battery pack in 2020 would cost toyota about $2500.

 

Would like to see a 20-25 mile ev range for next Gen, but not at the expense of cargo space.

2016 will be a very interesting year if Volt 2.0 or EV2 comes out with improved battery Pack, say 45 ev range.

 

...3-4x more power? what is Toyota talking 0 to 60 in 25 miliseconds...get me a G-suit!

PS- lovely color on that Lexus

 

I'd love it if it worked that way. If I read the second article correctly, they are talking about getting the energy density up from 55 wh/kg (prius phv) to 165 wh/kg - 220 wh/kg. At the lower end of the range that would let toyota drop a battery with more the twice the range in that 2020 prius phv and drop the weight at the same time by 31 kg - 68 lbs, making it weigh roughly what the non plug-in weighs. In order to get more power to the wheels, you need a more powerful mg2 also, but it would be a small change. To cut 0-60 times in half you need to roughly quadruple hp,

The press release is not all that interesting in terms of toyota doing something really different. The Tesla/Panasonic battery pack in the RAV4 EV is at 110 wh/kg. Toyota had been talking down battery improvements. This gets them more in line with Tesla, Nissan, and GM on expecting battery improvements. Here is the envia promised battery release

One Step Closer to Game-Changing Electric Vehicle Batteries | The Energy Collective

That is something that may perhaps make it out in 2016, the energy density is also for the battery, not the whole pack, so discount those figures a little. There are risks of commercializing it and keeping those densities, but lots of other chemistries are possible. Getting 3 times more than the current prius phv battery energy to weight seems quite conservative.

 

Does anyone know in general if the charging equipment, etc is typically compatible with the various Li- battery tech? I'd love if in 10 yrs you could swap to the more dense battery technology in a current model PIP without having to change much else.

 

Lion, Life, Lipo have different cell voltages, so no you cant interchange charging systems without adjusting for the cell voltages. Charge a Life pack at Lipo rates and you will kill it, charge a Lipo at Lion rates and it will never fully charge.

The one thing that scares me about Lipo packs is their ability to burst into a VERY hot flame when damaged or over/under charged, shorted. When properly cared for, very stable, but do one of the above to it, and it will go up in flames rather quickly and produces a nasty hot flame. I hope they package them well in the Hyundais.

Oh forgot to mention, charge any Li battery with a NiMh charger and it will kill it, may even cause it to go boom.

 

True if you charge an individual cell (differente voltage), but if you talk about the whole battery pack with same nominal voltage and with BMS integrated in the pack, I think you can charge it with the same input. Am I wrong?

 

Depends on the BMS, but in theory, you may be able to. It is just voltage and current. The BMS is what keeps it from going BOOM. As long as you dont overdo the input voltage, it should be OK. The BMS should regulate the current put into the pack. It is usually the amount of current put back into the pack that can kill it. On the RC packs, its the C rating, if you put in more current than the C rating of the pack, you can expect the pack to live a very short life. A 1 C rating means you can put in roughly 10% of the Mah for the charge rate. So a 3300 mah pack at 1 C is 330 mah charge rate, or .3 amp.

Since the car packs are designed to dump huge amounts of current back into them on a regen, it really shouldnt be a problem then, as long as the voltage is kept under the max rating. for Lion, no more than 4.2 volts per cell max, go over that and those cells will pop.

 

I assume the EV elec motor uses its fair share of rare earth metals? Not that it matters to me, just saying that's not necessarily big deal in battery choice.

 

All three have different voltages though, you cant charge a Life at a Lipo voltage or rate, or Lipo with a Lion rate. The only one that does tend to go up in flames are the Lipo packs though, I have had a lion pack leak, but no fire.

Just an idea how quickly a damaged Lipo can burn. Same thing can happen if over charged, even over discharging beyond its capacity can cause similar results.