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Featured Toyota solid-state batteries not until 2030 and only on a small scale then

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Gokhan, Nov 22, 2023.

  1. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    It is not looking good for Toyota's all-solid-state battery (ASSB).

    They just announced that it won't be until 2030 when you can expect them in actual production cars and only on a small scale then (10,000 limited-production vehicles).

    They announced their partnership with Idemitsu to manufacture their ASSBs.

    They use a sulfide powder for the solid electrolyte like Solid Power does, which is coated as a slurry and then cooked. The rest of the battery is the same as in a conventional lithium-ion battery minus the liquid electrolyte and porous-membrane separator, using a carbon (with some silicon) anode and an NMC etc. cathode.

    The main problem with the ASSB is durability (cycle life). As the solid-state cells expand (during charging) and contract (during discharging), the solid electrolyte between the anode and the cathode tends to crack and ruin the battery. To circumvent the problem, high externally applied pressures and even high temperatures are often necessary, which could make the solid-state cells impractical for EV use by negating their advantages with added weight and complexity.

    Idemitsu & Toyota team up to create global standard for all-solid-state batteries
     
    #1 Gokhan, Nov 22, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2023
  2. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Almost as poorly thought through as their hydrogen fuel cell cars... It seems like they're convinced that they're going to find a way to create some obscure new design that gives them huge amounts of patent and trademark rights like they did when they struck gold with the hyrbid synergy drive that brought us all together. But you usually can't catch lighting in a bottle more than once...
     
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  3. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    that was what .... 2004 ?

    Maybe Toyota needs another "wow!" - just like back then. But is that even still possible?

    Personally that's what brought me to PC back then. After investigating roughly ½ yr - yea - it was a huge yeah!! So I joined PC in 2005

    Now?
    Solid state batteries are still a ways off
    (sigh) they are still a ways off.
     
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  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i give them credit for admitting defeat after all the hype. wonder what stockholders are thinking?
    maybe a sigh of relief
     
    #4 bisco, Nov 22, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2023
  5. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    SSBs are a very challenging technology development. Note that there are several—if not many—different types of SSBs. The holy grail is the lithium-metal anode, which offers the highest energy density and fastest charging, and Toyota has never even worked on developing a lithium-metal anode. There are many competing companies, and they all face similar problems. We will see who will eventually be successful. It is no easier than a manned mission to Mars.
     
  6. Doug McC

    Doug McC Active Member

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    Don’t bet on that. Could be some of them are thinking “Crap! Dump it before it dives because Toyota is too far behind!”.
     
  7. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Even as Toyota was bragging how soon to the market (2025) their SSB was going to be - with its 600- 900mi range depending on which video on YouTube you watch;



    Sandy Monroe was pushing out videos saying in the nicest way don't count on it. Perhaps the company that they partnered with was just selling them a bill of goods ... and they're just figuring that out. With all the money they've spent lobbying to keep hydrogen afloat - think how far their SSB would be right now.
    .
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    or just a decent lineup of ev's
     
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  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Ah, the beauty of PowerPoint engineering.

    Bob Wilson
     
  10. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I believe 2030 finally is a realistic date. Toyota's hype could be described as puffery, and simply being optimistic, but it was being used as an excuse for not building more plug-ins until they had this miracle. Even in 2030 they won't go into many vehicles. You need to build or covert battery factories, and bring costs down.

    Bluecar already has been using solid state batteries as are some mercedes busses. These are not ready for prime time as a high volume replacement for other technologies.
     
  11. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    We shouldn't be thinking holy grail, we should be thinking improvement. So the longer goal would be a sodium anode, which would be cheaper than lithium, but lithium likely will be first. Hydro quebec that is making solid state batteries for busses, is trying to develop this as are others.

    I think semi solid batteries will get to large volumes before all solid state. These are very close to commercializing.
     
  12. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    It is sodium-ion, not sodium-anode. Anode is still carbon/silicon. CATL has been working on it for a long time. The problem is that sodium is a much heavier element than lithium, and the energy density gets very low, making the battery very heavy.

    No one is close to mass-producing any kind of SSB yet. Whatever out there is all demos. SSB buses in Paris caught catastrophic fires, and as a result, they are no longer in service.

    "Semisolid" is a gimmick, meaning that the company does not know how to manufacture an SSB. Once you have pores in your "solid" electrolyte/separator, it is a conventional battery. In fact, lithium–polymer batteries are semisolid batteries that have been in use for a long time. If you look at NIO/Welion's production "SSB" specs, they are not better than for a conventional battery. Some use "all-solid-state" (ASSB) to denote a complete lack of liquid electrolyte. I refer to any cell without pores in the separator as solid and any cell with pores in the separator as conventional.
     
  13. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    No I meant sodium (either metal or alloy) for the anode with at least a solid electrolyte, although this could contact a liquid electrolyte and conventional cathode (semi solid) or a second solid electrolyte and solid state cathode. These are working well in the lab. Conventional lithium anode SSB use more lithium than today's lion batteries, and lithium is likely to get more expensive in the future. Since these things will have better density than today's lion, but use a much cheaper metal, then it really is where things should be shooting. They have them working at different labs, but it will probably be 2035 before they have it down.

    CATL and BYD do have conventional sodium ion batteries. These are starting to go into a chinese car that is being produced now. That vehicle has a combination of sodium ion and lithium ion cells. The sodium ion are less energy dense, but if production goes up, cheaper, and they can operate well at colder temperatures. Its low volume until they get more testing. That is different than a sodium metal or alloy anode.

    Mercedes is back selling the things. The problem is NMC has advanced since these cells were developed a decade ago. Customers are choosing the NMC lion batteries mercedes is also offering.

    I guess all science is a gimmick then. Semisolid makes a lot of sense but is more complicated, but in ways that can make the cells more reliable. The chief benefit of SSB is the solid anode, which requires a solid electrolyte or a very exotic one. By using a secondary liquid or gel electrolyte then the problem of swelling is greatly reduced. That swelling is the reliability problem that today requires pressure or temperature.

    When Welion or CATLs semisolid batteries are in a good sample of vehicles then we will know if either company has done well increasing energy density as they have claimed. I do not have samples so I can't tell you if they work or are hype. Either way it is less hype than most of the solid state batteries by 2025. These batteries are going to initially be much more expensive than conventional batteries.
     
  14. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    The main problem with lithium-metal-anode or sodium-metal-anode batteries is not volume change during charging/discharging. It is metal-dendrite formation. An entirely solid-state separator is necessary to prevent dendrites. That is the whole origination of solid-state batteries. Higher pressures and temperatures are also used to tame the dendrites.

    Volume change also happens, yes. In metal-anode batteries, there is little or no metal in a discharged state. During charging, it is plated onto the electrode current collector. Toyota is not working on a metal-anode battery. They use a carbon/silicon anode. It is all-solid-state though. Since the separator is solid-state and there is no liquid inside the battery, I guess it is vulnerable to cracking during the normal volume changes.

    As I said, the commonly used lithium–polymer batteries are semisolid. When I say "gimmick," I mean that the company lacks competency and claims that they are a player in the field, while they are not. If NIO/Welion's separator has pores in it, then it is a conventional battery, no different than lithium-ion batteries with reduced liquid electrolyte and probably with no better specs. It could be safer perhaps by eliminating the flammable plastic, but that's about it.
     
  15. T1 Terry

    T1 Terry Active Member

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    I feel "solid State Batteries" in general will end up being a gimmick sales pitch thing.
    I just received my test sample 15Ah sodium ion cylindrical cells and it will be interesting to see just what they are capable of delivering. For the same area the "6Ah on a good day" NiMh traction battery takes up in the Gen 2 Prius, a 15Ah sodium ion battery will fit, yet to see if the claims match reality, but if they do, then the hybrid range would increase 300% or more, and that includes regen capacity, and start to make plug in hybrid a better option. Maybe even dropping the ICE capacity to a much smaller turbo charged pocket rocket engine designed for short cycle use and fueled using hydrogen generated and stored at the same time as the plug in hybrid battery is charging ... maybe even using some of the regen to produce hydrogen as well .......

    T1 Terry