Featured Toyota Talks Prius Prime versus Chevrolet Volt, Mirai, TNGA, and CH-R

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Tideland Prius, Apr 30, 2016.

  1. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    the volt and all the other choices. only time will tell. looking forward to sales reports, and interesting how gas keeps creeping up.
     
  2. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Apparently, you missed that there were several different discussions all talking about Prime being an option for the families who grew up with a Prius. Their children are older and a middle faux seat wouldn't serve any purpose anyway. The bucket seats, storage area with USB, convenient cupholders, and possibly heated seats would be far more appealing to the older children.

    Why do you think I got on enthusiasts so hard asking the "Who is the market for Volt?" question. There was a lesson to be learned for all of us going forward.

    GM made a colossal mistake of not knowing their audience and those Volt enthusiasts made that worse by endorsing it. The early adopters were assumed to be representative of ordinary mainstream consumers. They couldn't have been more wrong. A group of us tried to show how Prius success came from Toyota not giving in to emphasis on any particular trait, instead working really hard to find a balance... which was a clear effort to match consumer interest.

    Understanding the difference between want & need is a challenge in ordinary conditions. The crazy, rapidly changing, demand for clean & efficiency vehicles we currently face makes it even more difficult.

    I see Toyota's willingness to try new approaches by diversifying the Prius options even more as a genuine effort to push deeper into a stubborn market perfectly content sticking with traditional guzzlers. Change doesn't come easy. Taking some level of risk, without sacrificing cost, is required.
     
    #23 john1701a, May 1, 2016
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
  4. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    Theoretically, yes - it would be a great combo. We have a family of four and currently no plans for more or need for the fifth seat. Occasionally, we have an extra passenger and so a fifth seat would be nice. However, more often than this we have more than one extra passenger which requires us to take two cars anyway.

    Practically, my 2012 plug-in Prius is paid off next year. Although doubling the EV range is nice, I would not need it. A few more miles per gallon would also be nice. If this was not replacing the 2012 plug-in but instead a new second car, I would probably go for it.

    Over the next few years when I do replace the 2012 plug-in Prius, I hope to do so with a BEV that gets something close to 300 miles EV range with fast charging ability to make my trip to Los Angeles from the Sacramento area relatively painlessly but also not break the bank.

    I don't know how precisely common my situation is compared to nationally, but the plug-in Prius fits this model best for us and many of my colleagues and friends. At least if the primary goal is avoiding gasoline use, reasonable budget, and minimal charging inconveniences.

    But again, different household needs, desires, finances, etc.
     
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  5. mrlebop

    mrlebop Member

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    Because I love my current 2012 PiP, I might be tempted by the Prime for the technology. It would serve me very well on the commute and road trip front.

    But why does "differentiation" have to be "polarizing"? By polarizing I'm assuming he means the body or interior design of the vehicle were found to be unacceptable by a good chunk of people. I wish they would have told the Gen4 and Prime (ex-Mirai?) designers to put down the mouse and sculpting knives months earlier. Maybe 50% less scoops, folds, flame surfacing, creases, bulges, sharp edges, window warping, headlight cubes, and plastic blackout zones would have still been different enough to garner attention. A great product in a weird-for-the-sake-of-weird package probably won't help to increase acceptance or sales. Who knows though, I could be totally wrong :cautious:
     
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  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Many of my friends and cousins have 3 or more kids.
     
  7. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    So? Another piece of business wisdom confirmed from Volt's struggle was that ONE SIZE DOES *NOT* FIT ALL.

    Prius is only the first hybrid from Toyota to offer a plug. Some other larger & smaller choices will come over time.

    Just look at how GM is struggling now with how to expand Volt. There's the larger sedan approach directly from them and Chrysler using that same tech for a minivan. The next big move though is figuring out how to overcome the tax-credit dependency, since the technology is moving beyond the proving stage.
     
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  8. Vman455

    Vman455 Active Member

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    It's easy to think of our own experiences and observations as representative of the population as a whole. Median family size in the U.S. is 2.54, tied with 2014 and 2013 for the lowest in decades. No doubt Toyota looked at these numbers before making a decision on seating capacity; it might come back to bite them since consumers think of the worst-case scenario when making large purchase decisions (e.g. "I need five seats for when my sister's family comes to visit").

    It seems to me Toyota is trying for a product that isn't relegated to second-car status with the Prime, but one that can do it all: sufficient electric range for the majority of commuters, long cruising range on gasoline. If I didn't live in a multi-unit building which precludes plugging in, I would be interested in the Prime.
     
  9. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    The difference is that GM unwisely marketed their Two-Mode hybrid tech at pickup truck and SUV drivers who were largely indifferent to hybridization or were actively hostile for ideological reasons. In reality, few people were clamoring for large hybrid pickups and Yukon SUVs in 2008.

    Today, however, plenty of people (relatively) are enthusiastically driving Volts, give them high satisfaction ratings, and there is an emerging enthusiastic market clamoring for longer-range BEVs. Focusing on large size hybrids was a marketing failure.

    The 2nd gen Volt uniquely fits drivers that want a longer-range PHEV that gives them more of the experience of a 200+ mile BEV but with a full performance backup gas engine. I think that's a good market. Lots of people strongly prefer the driving experience that an electric drivetrain provides. Even 22 miles will not be enough for many commute drivers who cannot charge both at home and at work.

    Overall, I think the Prius Prime is much more competitive for the PHEV space than the 1st generation car. All-electric range of around 22 miles plus Prius-like electric acceleration up to 84 mph (before starting the engine) is a good fit for many drivers. I think both cars will do well because they fill a real emerging market space. They are sufficiently differentiated that having both available will give customers better market choices.

    The Bolt EV seems to fit well, at least as an interim lease until something better like the Model 3 comes along. Maybe you think it won't be available in your area early enough? One can always lease or but in CA and then drive home across state lines (or have it transported for a few hundred $$) in order to get one sooner. A Bolt EV is unlikely to be noticeably more expensive to lease than an i3-rex. Maybe you are concerned about non-Tesla DC charging infrastructure?
     
    #29 Jeff N, May 1, 2016
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
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  10. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Either that or Toyota has a 5 (7?) passenger PHEV down the pipeline to solve our issue and given the timeline of the Prius Prime, it has to settle with the criticism until the new product arrives.

    A Prius v Prime would work (but it may remain as a 5 passenger rather than a 7 passenger). You get the cargo space and 5 seating of the PiP1.

    Alternatively, Toyota may want to challenge the Fusion Energi and create a Camry Prime. Take the know-how of development they did with the IS300h (battery is in the spare tire well) and perhaps extend it under the seat and relocate the fuel tank and now we have a midsize family PHEV with minimal cargo intrusion and folding rear seats.
     
  11. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    Certainly, it's not going to work for everyone. And that's okay.

    However most households have four or fewer people (this includes singles, young couples, large percentage of two children or fewer households, empty-nesters, etc.), so this among other things makes it a potentially rather large niche.

    Even if our only goal is all EV commute, the Prius prime is not for everyone. But US Department of Transportation data shows a little bit over 50% of US commuters can do an all EV commute with the Prius prime even if they cannot charge at work. That's a big deal.
     
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  12. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    The other thing that Toyota may be going for with the Prime may be halo effect.

    To be honest, the only reason I even went to test drive a Gen 4 was the Prime. Then I'm realizing that anything with a plug, unless I can carry the battery into my apartment (like some scooters and e-bikes do), probably won't be that practical, and I'm now considering a standard Prius.
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The Volt served GM well as a halo car.
     
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  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    if toyota made a camry prime, the might as well jsust get rid of the whole trunk lid. there wouldn't be any space left inside.
    until they make a new platform to hold the batteries like the volt, it's just an exercise in futility.
     
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    Source: www.fueleconomy.gov
    metric i3-Rex Prius ECO Volt Prius Tesla S
    1 elec $/25 mi $0.94 $1.01 $1.07
    2 gas $/25 mi $1.68 $0.96 $1.29 $1.04
    3 range mi 150 663 420 588 240
    4 volume ft{3} 99 118 109 118 120

    • Prius ECO and Prius gas cost per mile is similar to plug-in electric cost per mile.
    • i3-Rex and Volt gas cost per mile is significantly higher
    • gasoline costs of around $2.19 per gallon and electricity cost of >12 cents per kWh
    When I did my 2016 Prius test drive, I mentioned the Prius is cheaper to run than some electrics while thinking of the Tesla. In fact, it is in the electric cost of the i3-Rex and Volt. So why does this relate to this thread?

    If the Prius Prime combines 2016 Prius gas efficiency and Volt-like, electric efficiency, it will in effect be a long range, no-surprises, solution.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #35 bwilson4web, May 2, 2016
    Last edited: May 2, 2016
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  16. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    Hold up, is that supposed to be $/25 mi (the "Cost to drive 25 mi" line), not $/mi?
     
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  17. TomSwift

    TomSwift Member

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    Hmmm... The Prius Liftback can be cheaper to run (in fuel cost per mile) than a Tesla Model S, but only if you use
    1. the least efficient Model S,
    2. gasoline costs of around $2.19 per gallon,
    3. and electricity cost of >12 cents per kWh.

    If one uses a 70D or 90D Model S (with a combined MPGe >100) , the cost to travel 25 miles is $1.07/ 25 miles @ 13 cents per kWh (or "free", as is true in my case, with a PV array that generates enough electricity to cover my home's electrical needs and drive about 10,000 miles per year on net-metered solar power).
     
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  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    I don't follow the Tesla closely so went back looked at four, the top and bottom, and found one with the higher road efficiency. The table is updated.

    Bob Wilson
     
  19. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    This is my prelim attempt to explain to Gen2 to Gen4 space
    Bob- I show 117.7-ft3 for Prius 2 and 120.5-ft3 for Prius 2 eco
    Is there more volume in the Prime (before batt is subtracted)? Prime is supposedly subtract 7-ft3 so that puts me at 113.5-ft3, but I do not know if the interior is a little bigger to start with.
    Re: TNGA - Is that a fixed frame size or can they make it bigger?

    upload_2016-5-2_9-33-54.png
     
    #39 wjtracy, May 2, 2016
    Last edited: May 2, 2016
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  20. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    #40 Sergiospl, May 2, 2016
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