Toyota "WS" Lifetime ATF

Hi Jay,

Thanks for the info. I can recognize some of the elements on your chart. It would take me a little while to get used to seeing those readings and pointing out problems and causes,but I'm always up for learning something new, . Never using this in day-to-day,it is all new to me. For the general public,would they even want/need it? When should it be done and at what cost? Is it worth it for John Q. Public?

 

Hi Rick:

Traditionally, used oil analysis was only performed by industrial plants and trucking fleets. The rationale was/is the equipment is so expensive, and downtime is so expensive, plus the possibility of catastrophic failure causing injury/death, that used oil analysis became "routine."

Also with sump capacity approaching hundreds of gallons in some systems, you only want to change the fluid when it REALLY needs to be changed. Hence the investment in centrifugal particle separators, elaborate bypass filters on distribution manifolds, etc. The filtration on something like a V-16 Waukesha industrial motor is impressive.

For the car owner, it all depends on how long the person intends to keep their vehicle. If a person only intends on keeping a car 3-4 years why bother to even open the hood?

Assuming a person wants to keep their vehicle a LONG time, then routine used oil analysis is far cheaper than letting a problem go until catastrophic failure. Say you have something like a minor intake pipe leak, or a minor coolant leak: it wouldn't matter if you changed the oil every 1,000 miles, it would still catch up to you.

I suppose it's best to wait until normal break-in is over with, say after the first 2-3 oil normally scheduled oil changes. You would expect higher elemental readings during break-in, which the average person would interpret as a problem.

It's best to sample at every oil/filter change, or more often if you extend the oil change interval. Most sample bottles are only 100-130ml so with the proper sample pump, it's very quick and easy to draw the oil.

AFAIK in Winnipeg only commercial engine companies, like Toromont Caterpillar, can perform used oil analysis. Even then the samples are shipped off to their lab in Toronto.

http://www.toromontcat.com/sos_welcome.asp

There are also labs that do nothing but used oil analysis, like Blackstone:

http://www.blackstone-labs.com

The sample kit cost me $16 Canadian plus taxes, which includes postage for sending the sample off to Toronto. If you want to test viscosity it costs an extra $10.

Again, is it "worth it" depends on how long Joe Q. Public intends to keep the car. If they intend on trading every 3-4 years and/or before warranty expires, then no it's not worth it. OTOH if there IS an issue with the motor, it's easier to prove with used oil analysis from a reputable lab.

I wonder how quickly Toyota would have identified the sludging problem in the 3.0 V6 if more folks had run used oil analysis? At the very least they would have noticed a good synthetic oil would have turned that into a non-issue.

Or how long GM would have waited before taking care of all those intake manifold gasket defects, instead of blaming the customer for "improper" cooling system maintenance.

jay

 

As a long-time user of synthetic lubricants, I wish there was a synthetic alternative to the Toyota ATF. I have used synthetic oil & synthetic ATF in a 1993 Mustang Cobra that has been run quite hard at times, and believe that the synthetics help with both gas consumption as well as hardware lifespan.

 

Brent:

Apparently the Toyota WS is a low viscosity synthetic fluid.

jay

 

Just thought I'd put a few details out there to share a little knowledge. I'm an automotive engineer, GO VA TECH!, and have actually designed several CVT's. There are many different styles, and the one in our Prius' is a simple chain/belt type. A specially designed linked looking belt rides on toroidally shaped (think cones), a pair on each end. As these move apart, and close together, the belt goes higher or lower in between the cones. The special $50 fluid is a special fluid that had to be developed, many years ago, when CVT's were in their early stage. The reason is, that the fluid is actually what drives the car. I know, I sound nuts. Their is supposed to be no metal to metal contact in a CVT. The belt "rides" on a very very thin layer of oil that transfers the power. It's one of many reasons that CVT's are power limited--there are many more, but the fluid is one of them.

The only parts really that could see metal shavings are from the planetary gear driveset at the output. I agree, that nothing is really "lifetime", but I'm certainly feeling safe in not changing my fluid until 100k miles. Don't sue me or anything, but that's what I'm doing. At that time, I would use a pump to make sure that I changed all of the fluid. I would change the fluid partly for particles, but mostly for oil breakdown from temperatures, any condensation or water vapor that may have formed, or other degredation of the fluid molecule chains.

My Audi also has a CVT, very similiar type to the Prius, and I won't be messing with that fluid until about 80k miles, which is what's recommended by Audi. However, remember that car is pushing 220 hP, which is little higher than the Prius, don't you think?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BrianJ @ Jan 27 2007, 03:02 AM) [snapback]381608[/snapback]</div>

the Prius doesn't use a cone and belt CVT it's a simple planetary gear set.

 

Go Hokies!

 

Hi BrianJ,

No your Audi does not have any kind of transmission that resembles the Prius transmission.

Check out these web references:

http://www.ecrostech.com/prius/original/PriusFrames.htm

click on the "understanding the Prius" link.

Also:

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/110602.html

TRW was apparently the first company to patent such an idea.






Hi Again BrianJ,

As to power limitations, you might want to check out:


http://www.lexus.com/models/GSh/detailed_specifications.html

Which details the specs of a car that puts 340 horsepower thru the eCVT similar, but larger than the Prius transmission, and without shifting times does 0 to 60 in 5.2 seconds.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BrianJ @ Jan 27 2007, 03:02 AM) [snapback]381608[/snapback]</div>

A little knowledge indeed! You don't know what you are talking about. The Hybrid Synergy Drive is planetary. No slippage, no lost torque. I'm an HSD head, not a cone head.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BrianJ @ Jan 27 2007, 06:02 AM) [snapback]381608[/snapback]</div>

I hope you're not done your studies yet.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Brent @ Nov 14 2005, 03:39 PM) [snapback]155479[/snapback]</div>

The NHW11 Prius uses a Type T-IV and the Amsoil ATF is nearly identical in viscosity and additives. I've been using is since draining the contaminated Type T-IV. It appears to have a similar life to Type T-IV.

The NHW20 Prius uses Type WS and I haven't seen (nor looked) for an equivalent. It may be possible to use it in an NHW11 and achieve improved performance. However, this is an experiment.

Bob Wilson

 

I've been a BMW parts manager (as well as Lamborghini) for longer than I'd like to say ... we sell any fluid that comes in the cars. Sometimes I tell people to bring their own containers though (and they do).

I can't think of any part or product connected with BMW that we don't get from them and sell over the counter.

 

To update this thread, I've already changed my PSD fluid twice. At least here in Canada, the WS is cheap enough, around $30 for a 4 litre tin. If you have access to a huge ramp like I do at my hobby farm, it's very easy to do. A lift also makes it easier.

Just don't confuse the drain plugs. The hex head one is the proper PSD fluid drain, the one next to it is the coolant drain.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jan 31 2007, 09:01 PM) [snapback]383612[/snapback]</div>

Hi Jay,

Could you share the proper torque numbers for the drain and fill bolts? I am too cheap to buy the service manual. Thanks. (Did you get a UOA on your last engine oil change?)

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(maineprius947 @ Feb 1 2007, 12:48 PM) [snapback]383955[/snapback]</div>

Hello Dennis

I also don't have the shop manual, but I do still have the manuals for my 2000 GMC Sierra. The closest thing to the Prius PSD/CVT case was the magnesium transfer case, and GM suggested 15 lb ft. I'm reading this off Volume 1, page 4-156 of the 2000 Sierra/Silverado shop manual

I also applied some Loctite Nickel Grade Anti Seize to the plug threads before torqueing them. No leaks yet. The first time I changed the PSD fluid, I had one hell of a time getting the fill plug off. I always take the fill plug off first for a good reason. Last summer, it was much easier to remove.

The first time I changed the PSD fluid, at around 18,000 km if I recall correctly, it came out VERY dark. Lot's of fine shavings in the oil. When I did it last summer it had almost 50,000 km on it, and looked almost new. In my opinion, an early initial PSD fluid change is beneficial.

Argh the last used oil analysis is driving me crazy - I can't find it! I got the results just before I left on my long winter vacation to the hobby farm, and this afternoon I tore apart the condo, but nothing. The UOA may be at the hobby farm, and I'm heading out tomorrow afternoon. If I recall, it was a good UOA but I can't recall any specific numbers. Sorry bout that.

jay

 

Jay,

Thanks for getting back to me with the appox. torque numbers for the drain and fill bolts for the ATF change (15 ft-lbs). Glad the numbers looked good on your UOA, if you find the report, post it please and I'll add it to the spreadsheet. I assume you didn't do an analysis on the PSD fluid because it looked almost new? Would you guess that 60K miles might be ok after an initial 5K drain and refill based on what you saw after 50000 Km?

Dennis

 

Geez I still haven't found that UOA, and it's starting to get me angry. I know it has to be around somewhere, I wouldn't throw it away.

I never thought of sampling the latest PSD fluid change, it really did look like it came fresh from the tin jug. Way better than it looked the first time I changed it. Too bad I didn't have any sample bottles that time, I would have had it tested.

Yes I agree, an early initial change, say the first time motor oil change, then every 40-60 K or so.

 

I believe it's 29ft-lbs for both the drain and fill (even the spec for the oil drain plug is 28ft-lbs). You might want to get new washers, too. It'll run you a buck per.

Thanks,
Shawn

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TucsonPrius @ Feb 6 2007, 09:01 PM) [snapback]386485[/snapback]</div>

Thanks Shawn.

I assume you have the shop manual or know someone who does? I will get the new washers, good idea, since I hope to be waiting another 30-60 K before changing it again. I am going to wait until late winter or early spring to do it because I am a wimp and don't like to work on my car in an unheated garage (15 F lately in the garage and about 5 F outside on average this week). I know for Jay that would be shorts and t-shirt weather in Manitoba where you don't wear a coat until its -20 C.

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(maineprius947 @ Feb 8 2007, 03:05 PM) [snapback]387118[/snapback]</div>

Ha ha. I happily paid a lot extra to get a condo with heated underground parking. Don't worry, I'm plenty wimpy about the cold. At the hobby farm my detached garage/shop is insulated and I can also heat it if I chose to do so, with a 10 kw electric shop heater. I rarely do since it costs a small fortune to run the thing, even with power as cheap as it is in Manitoba.

I asked my dealer about the crush washers on the PSD case, and they claimed they reuse them. So I did too. I don't have a shop manual so I had to guess based on the shop manual for a different vehicle. So far no leaks.

However next time I'll crank the plugs up to 29 lb ft.