Featured Toyota's Anti-Electric Car Marketing Scam Gets Banned In Norway

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by PriusCamper, Jan 24, 2020.

  1. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    I couldn't help but smirk a little at how Toyota's obstinence to full electric vehicles (chickens) coming home to roost in the article below. As in: This rather old saying, 'chickens have come home to roost', is normally used to mean that the bad things that someone has done in the past have come back to bite or haunt the individual..." http://bit.ly/37qolXl
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    Toyota has a history of creating misleading electric-vehicle advertising, especially with its “self-charging hybrid” ad campaign. Norway has now banned the campaign, deeming it a lie.

    The Japanese automaker has long been a proponent of hybrid and fuel cell vehicles. In the process, it has shunned all-electric vehicles and focused on “electrified” by 2025.

    Toyota has been going further than simply not making all-electric vehicles, aside from compliance cars. It has also been producing advertising content that some would call propaganda against all-electric vehicles.

    In 2018, Lexus, Toyota’s premium brand, started a new advertising campaign for its hybrids (HEVs without plugs) with claims like “self-charging,” having “infinite range,” all while trash talking all-electric vehicles in the process. -- Electrek
     
  2. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    What bothered me most about the ads was they claimed their self charging happened because of regenerative braking. I think that it is at most 10%. The gas engine does most of the recharging.


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  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    What bothered me was the narrative to spin short-term marketing for the luxury market as representative of the long-term plan for the Toyota brand.
     
  4. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    If you live on top of a mountain and have a really big helicopter landing pad and a heavy lifter haul your car home with you at the end of a long work day so you don't have to drive your Prius yourself it'd be not just self charging, but a machine more efficient than perpetual motion! Every time you drive to work you go downhill and the batteries are always being charged...

    "My car is always driving downhill and self recharging."

    It's part of the new campaign they're about to announce. But first let's review their old slogans before we talk about the new ones:

    Other past Toyota taglines include: "You asked for it. You got it" from 1975 to 1979; "Who could ask for anything more?" from 1986 to 1990; and "Toyota. Everyday," which used the Sly and the Family Stone song "Everyday People," from 1997 to 2001. Still, people mostly recall the 1980-86 slogan, "Oh, What A Feeling," showing owners jumping for joy about their purchases. Toyota | Ad Age
     
  5. dubit

    dubit Active Member

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    I don't understand the giant push by everyone for full on electric anyways. Better for the environment? Maybe in some places. Around here where I live it's going to be coal powered. Personally, I'd rather stay "hybrid" until the time charge stations get built & installed on a massive scale. (Not including the electric grid itself needing a big upgrade I'd imagine) I'd own one, I mean why not. But there's no place I can charge it here at home anyways unless I run a giant extension cord out my window, across the yard and parking lot.

    I do have a friend who drives a Tesla. Very nice car. But he did tell me the cost of electricity to charge it hasn't related to any cost savings. That's here in Indiana where electricity is cheap. I can't imagine what it would be like in The People's Republik of Kalifornia.

    But alas, this thread isn't about that. It's about marketing. Which in most cases anyways, tends to stretch the truth anyways. :LOL:
     
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  6. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    It's a mixed blessing that people don't pay attention to long-term or big-picture issues. We do indeed have issues with dirty sources of electricity. We also have an issue with the perception of Prius. Fortunately, that's all changing. In fact, if you look at the situation, that's been the destiny all along. Thing is, the "Tortoise and the Hare" playing out in real life is easy to overlook.

    Starting now and looking back, you see Toyota's reputation with hybrid. Prius is king, but thought of as slow & gutless. Mid-2020, here comes RAV4 Prime. It's like the anti-Prius, fast & powerful. Attention will turn to it. Toyota knows their audience. Those who never paid attention or simply even cared will get a twinkle in their eye. That's an option those loyal customers never saw coming. They'll be thrilled by the idea of an AWD choice with a plug. A few years later, we'll get the next generation Prius Prime and it will be amazing. So, everyone wins.

    The point is there's a diverse audience out there, many from traditional markets have a lot to lose, and the technology isn't quite there yet for direct competition. We're getting close though. It will happen. But in the meantime, we still have to deal with that rabbit.
     
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  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    norway has different energy options, political climate and outlook than us.
     
  8. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    really? gosh, sorry to hear Indiana has banned solar, wind, & battery backup. Once these systems pay for their self (ours amortized in 6yrs), you can find yourself getting zero-cost power. Sure, not everyone can afford it - but that's why many public entities are doing it as a form of utility.

    in addition - i understand that filtering one coal plant is easier than 100's of thousands of autos & trucks & SUVs & leaf blowers, chain saws, snow blowers, lawn mowers Etc.
    As for the push for "all-or-nothing" electric - that seriously contorts the premise. The premise is, Toyota has been anti EV & published smear campaigns against it. Hydrogen Lobby, which Toyota is a big part of - also does the smear. So naturally - electric userss, which work fine for many, will give that notion a huge push back.. No one says we have to be "full-on" electric. There's a place for many power sources .... but when a lobby promulgates BS, you can be sure is it going to cause the gloves to come off.
    .
     
    #8 hill, Jan 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
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  9. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Great discussion everyone... What's not mentioned yet is that fact that Toyota profit margins and their entire manufacturing infrastructure depends on selling hybrid cars and to switch to all electric cars and compete with Tesla, Kia and others would mean retooling their factories and streamlining the parts making contractors who've been working for them in highly profitable ways for decades. And if their advertising&marketing departments are convinced they can sustain the status quo with dishonesty, then that's what they'll do. Of course whoever made those arguments in their board room is being questioned now that they have to shut down or retool their sales efforts in Norway and likely other places soon too.
     
  10. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    that level of dishonesty would be disastrous to their trustworthiness - so much so - that it'd be an unlikely scenario ... Toyota has already seen hybrid sales decrease - percentage wise here - so it's more likely they just want to hedge existing products until greater ev acceptability exists.
    .
     
  11. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    I think they're doing great when it comes to brand loyalty and trustworthiness of their actual vehicles... But when it comes to pushing the envelope of dishonest advertising, they finally figured out where their limits are. But who knows, maybe they won't give up just yet and they'll double down and start attacking children like Greta who are trying to defend their future by advocating for an end to fossil fuels?
     
  12. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    Norway is off base here.
    First of all...

    I don't believe that.
    YES...Toyota is still on the bridge. Toyota is promoting Hybrids. They don't sell a full electric.
    So of course their advertising is going to be supportive of the products they are selling.
    I don't find calling a Hybrid "Self Charging" to be misleading. As an encapsulated product, a Hybrid does have the capability to charge it's own battery. I know given my lifestyle...no access to a garage, when I was looking at Hybrids, the fact that you didn't need to plug them in was a significant reality concerning the purchase.

    I know people that want Full Electric, and want evolution to that reality, are disappointed Toyota doesn't offer a product at this time, but to internalize that disappointment and frame their advertising as being a lie?
    Get over it.
    IMO using terms like "Lie" or "Scam" to describe the advertising of Hybrids, is what is a lie and scam.
     
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  13. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Life is good in 2020, you can get a self-driving car and a self-charging car.
    However, right now those things are only partially true..
     
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  14. Ronald Doles

    Ronald Doles Member

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    A good portion of Ohio electricity is still generated with coal as well.

    Our forward thinking Ohio representatives narrowly passed Ohio House bill 6 which gives $130 million a year in incentives to First Energy to keep two ageing nuclear plants and two ageing coal plants that were scheduled to be shut down to continue to operate. This bill forces Ohioans to buy more costly energy from these four plants when cheaper energy is available in the marketplace. The rate increase was added to every Ohio ratepayers bill not just First Energy customers. This bill also forced the cancellation of a new natural gas generating plant that was being built in northeast Ohio. That natural gas plant was to replace the energy that these four plants are currently producing.

    They claim that this bill saves the customers money. How does a rate increase save a customer money, the increase will be offset by funds that they took away from a clean energy program that would have required an increase in the percentage of energy generated by wind and solar in Ohio.
    .
    I did a little investigating cost/benefit of windmills.

    The typical 2.3 megawatt/hour windmill costs $2 million installed. It has a design life of 20 years and is expected to operate for about 25 years. The average output is 1.3 megawatt hours. That is 11,000 megawatt hours per year and 280,000 megawatt hours over it's lifetime. That is a generating cost of less than 2 cents per kilowatt and it will pay $1 million each year in taxes.

    Not sure what your Indiana electric rate is. My energy provider is AEP and they charge me 5.5 cents per kw for electricity generation and 12.2 cents per kw when you bundle in transportation and all the other fees that make up my bill. That makes wind seem like a logical option for an energy company.

    The wind industry's problem is that Ohio has some of the most restrictive windmill siting regulations in the country. Again they were written with the help of an energy industry that is stuck owning a number of ageing coal plants. If you close down a coal plant then you have to clean up the site and that costs money. They are going to use every trick in the book to keep them running as long as they can. Contributing to our legislators campaigns is a cheap way to make that happen.

    Electric utilities have to plan for peak load which occurs early evening. Other than early evening hours there is an excess in grid capacity. If there was a huge increase in electric vehicles and the majority charge from home at night the grid operators would probably like that.

    We have an all electric home with the smart meter and a super insulated AEP rental electric water heater. AEP sends a signal over the grid to switch it off when there is a high peak yet it still provides all the hot water we need. The same could be done for EV charging.
     
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  15. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Actually no it will cause confusion in their market place. Toyota also sells the Mirai there and you could call that a self charging Hybrid as well, since the Mirai is designed with the same hybrid system (minus the e-CVT).

    So you wouldn’t buy a Mirai because it’s a self charging hybrid would you? There are other issues at large here.

    Not entirely disagreeing, but it’s a zero sum game to me because it still uses gasoline. Actually I like the description Toyota uses for the RAV4 Prime. “RAV4 Prime uses regular-grade gasoline — just not much of it.” You can fill in for RAV4 Prime for whatever hybrid car you want.

    Weird, because mathematically (at 60 mph), for 40 miles if I used the CHARGE mode for 20 minutes (about the time it takes to charge to 80%) at 38 mpg, then drove on EV for another 20 minutes, I’d get over 500 mpg. (Repeat as necessary). Would you call my Prime a self charging hybrid?

    Those terms are a touch strong also. But there is something not entirely accurate either, especially when Toyota emphasizes that regen does the recharging.


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  16. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    Not familiar with the product line IN Norway...specifically the Mirai.
    But in general, I think comparing Toyota's advertising to being a Lie? Or a Scam? Is entirely off base and unfair.

    Is "overemphasis" of the regenerative braking system....akin to a lie or scam?
    Exactly what wording are they using when describing the regenerative braking system and it's support of the recharging system? It would have to be a pretty egregious overstatement for me to call it purposeful lying, or an attempt to scam.

    I mean, I think it is fair to say Hybrids can recharge their own batteries without being plugged in. That statement was made DECADES ago, when the 1st Prius was sold.
    It's also fair to say the regenerative braking system IS part of the recharging process for the battery. I'd want to see/hear exactly what wording they are using before I would be too critical.

    Maybe I'm being a "Toyota" fanboy here? But to me Lie and Scam are pretty strong terms.
     
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  17. salyavin

    salyavin Junior Member

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    Another thing is maintenance. EVs have no oil changes, spark plugs, mufflers, transmissions etc. to do maintenence on you just get hit by a battery eventually. hybrids have oil changes, spark plugs, belts, mufflers, etc. to keep the mechanic busy AND a battery that will die eventually.
     
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  18. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That's a little overly simplistic. A hybrid like Prius doesn't have any belts or gears and some engine components get used so lightly maintenance is quite a bit less than traditional vehicles. A hybrid like Prius Prime uses those components even less.
     
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  19. salyavin

    salyavin Junior Member

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  20. Prashanta

    Prashanta Member

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    Do you have the data to back this up? Either way, the system does lower gas consumption and CO2 emissions. It does charge without human intervention. I honestly don't think you can find someone who thought that a hybrid vehicle will never gave to be fueled. I don't see what the fuss is about.
     
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