Toyota's Suicide Squeeze

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 8 2007, 07:09 PM) [snapback]522906[/snapback]</div>

Fuzzy math. I am sure that the U.S. Customs office can get you realistic and unexaggerated numbers.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 8 2007, 07:09 PM) [snapback]522906[/snapback]</div>

OK so you are pulling the numbers out of thin air, with absolutely no reference or base for your statement.


According to your calculations Toyota is responsible for almost half the deficit with Japan, get real . You are as clueless about macro economics as you are about cars.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Oct 9 2007, 02:32 AM) [snapback]523013[/snapback]</div>

Of course, all of the Detroit 3's problems would go away if they just built quality cars but I guess it's easier to blame someone else than it is to turn out better product.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Oct 9 2007, 01:32 AM) [snapback]523013[/snapback]</div>

No it is you who are clueless. In 2006 Toyota imported 1.179 million vehicles into the United States from the home Island. Depending on the value you use( I wonder why toyota does not publish this info) $20,000/unit--$23,580,000,000
$25,000/unit--$29,475,000,000
$30,000/unit--$35,370,000,000

The 1.179 million imports includes 322,000 Lexuses and you know the avg value of those is way over $30,000.
Yaris and Prius under $20,000-176,000 imports

4Runner-103,000
FJCruiser-56,000
Highlandrer-129,000
Landcruiser-RAV4-152,000

Then you have to include all of the replacement parts imported and sold at the dealerships, and all the parts imported and put on in the United States. Many Toyota products assembled in the United States are as much as 50% imported parts. I would bet that Toyota makes up at least half the trade deficit with Japan when all is said and done. I guess you would have to offset toyota imports with their Us exports. $0,000,000,000, I guess that part is not hard is it.

Sorry Bulldog real numbers, very real for the US economy and all of us.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Oct 9 2007, 08:42 AM) [snapback]523047[/snapback]</div>

As hard as it may seem to believe, the reports one reads tend to indicate that this is indeed what is happening. Now if the dealer experience were to match the improved cars, GM would have something going, at least.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MaxLegroom @ Oct 9 2007, 09:38 AM) [snapback]523076[/snapback]</div>

Doesn't Toyota* have one of the worst dealer experiences around, on average?

*Not Lexus... I know Lexus emulates the BMW/Audi model of the customer is always right.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MaxLegroom @ Oct 9 2007, 09:38 AM) [snapback]523076[/snapback]</div>

Oh, I know, Detroit is improving their quality. It they keep improving and the Asian companies stop improving, Detroit may catch up to being on par with Toyota in a few years. Of course, the Asian companies won't stop improving so Detroit will probably never catch up but if they did, it would probably take five or ten years before their reputations affected the buying behavior of those of us who don't even consider Detroit cars any longer.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 9 2007, 05:49 AM) [snapback]523051[/snapback]</div>

FIrst it is $42B, now it is either $23B, $29B or $35B. The fact of the matter is you are grasping at straws, and have no clue about the real number = clueless.

Even your math is flaky as the % of sales price of a vehicle is very far removed from the actual drop in country cost. Something you should know working in the industry.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 3 2007, 02:48 PM) [snapback]520742[/snapback]</div>

We're both in the same business ... selling vehicles to the public. I will tell you one very very key concept about Toyota buyers ( it's probably true of other makes customers as well ). They don't give a rat's a$$ about media hoopla. If a Prius buyer comes in looking for something reliable and fuel efficient he or she will never give the Tundra a single glance. They're focused on themselves alone. What somewhat else buys is of no concern.

A few very aware buyers do put down SUV drivers but trucks are different. Everybody needs a truck for utility at one time or another, so trucks get a free pass most of the time. Couples with both a Prius and a 1/2 ton truck are common.

The Camry hybrid is doing just what it's supposed to do at about 20-25% of total Camry sales. The next Gen Prius with probably 3 models will be another storm surge.

It must be difficult selling against these products that are constantly being discussed pro and con with nothing of your own to offer. It's understandable that your long held wish for Toyota's demise will have to be put on the back burner a little longer. The Tundra is going to be very successful and push the Sierra down to Titan levels soon. But hey hope is a great thing to hold onto.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 5 2007, 04:36 PM) [snapback]521919[/snapback]</div>

Do you know why Bejing and Tokyo have such great influence in Washington right now? Both of them are the Bankers for Bush's War in Iraq. We do not have enough money here to fight this war so Treasury is printing bonds and government commitment. When the US government needs several $Billions more it's China and Tokyo that step up and buy the bonds. They are Bush's bankers.

You don't often call your business' banker and rag at him for something he does somewhere else in your town do you?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 8 2007, 10:09 PM) [snapback]522906[/snapback]</div>

Sorry it's your economics that are fuzzy the math is off just a little. When you are talking trade deficit you can only count the vehicles imported. The vehicles made here or in CA don't count.

1.178 million imports at a customs dutiable value of about $20,000 per ( it's not the retail value it's the FOB port of export value that is dutiable and is the basis for the trade figures ) give a 'deficit' of about $23,000,000,000. ( Don't forget the Scions in the low-priced weighted average ).

Now yes at the retail level Toyota is taking about $70 Billion away from the Big three auto makers so there is HUGE a deficit there. But that's just capitalism at work.

So now you have the whole story.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Oct 9 2007, 10:17 AM) [snapback]523119[/snapback]</div>

Actually a Prius with an MSRP of say $25,000 would have an import cost of between $20,000 and $25,000. Your only comeback is that I am grasping at straws. How about if you prove to me how Toyota importing 1.179 million vehicles does not result in the US running a huge trade deficit with one company. Your only reply on mileage or trade issues is that I am dumb and grasping st straws. How about some facts.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DeadPhish @ Oct 10 2007, 08:21 AM) [snapback]523532[/snapback]</div>

I agree with much of what you said except for two points. The Tundra is quickly becoming a flop(Toyota lowering prices?, 0% financing for 60 months all summer?) within the automotive world and it is only a matter of time before that seeps into the buying public.

The second point is on the trade/financial issue with Japan and China. China is taking a page out of Japan INC book with many downright deceitful and shady "trade" practices. It will have to be noticed if only because of the size of China and the potential for economic problems because of "trade" in the US. I know internally Toyota is scared to death of the coming backlash. I think an incredibly significant move signifying the fear in Toyota City was the announcement of toyota's next plant being in Japan and NOT in the US.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 10 2007, 09:43 AM) [snapback]523538[/snapback]</div>

The Tundra is setting record after record after record and has actually passed the Sierra as the better-selling half-ton. Now this year they will add 13 new work truck models and lower the price of these to appeal to the everyday workman market and they're likely to be adding a diesel some time next year. The initial goal of 200K is well within sight if the market holds up. Next year with additional models 200K is a given and 250K is probable. The Incentives worked like a charm in getting the vehicles into the hands of buyers right away. Yep they did buy their way into the market with brute force but hey who said that capitalism was a gentlemanly game. In the end the incentives generated a huge additional profit. You're good at numbers.

As long as China continues to fund Bush's war then they will have a free hand here. Again you don't call up your own banker and start screaming at him over the phone.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DeadPhish @ Oct 10 2007, 09:01 AM) [snapback]523553[/snapback]</div>

You know the Tundra has not been even close to original sales expectations. Toyota will have to give away the farm to make 200,000 units this year. I know toyota did not invest all that money to talk about the Sierra. At least now I know how toyota is trying to spin the poor performance.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 10 2007, 06:43 AM) [snapback]523538[/snapback]</div>

You made the claim about the number, yet you have provided zero fact to back that statement up. WHy do I need to provide any facts as you clearly have no provided any specific facts to backup your statement? Again grasping at straws and a very poor comeback when you are called out.

You will be much more entertaining when you can actually brign anything meaningful to the table, your current drivel is actually getting boring.

Must be nice to be paid by GM to argue on Toyota boards, I notice all your posts are only during working hours. STrange hmmmmm. Then you acuse everyone else arguing with you that they work for Toyota. Lame as usual, but what should I expect you are working for a desperate company that continue to focus on the wrong things.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 8 2007, 10:09 PM) [snapback]522906[/snapback]</div>

Malorn~

I noticed everyone just ignored your Malibu statment.... Thats right folks Chevy will have the Hy-Malibu as well as Staurn will have its hysedan also......

Im wondering though, will the HyMalibu be cheaper than the Prius?
Whats the mpg rating on the HyMalibu?
What will the warranty be like on the HyMailbu?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Oct 10 2007, 10:16 AM) [snapback]523593[/snapback]</div>

Fact: Toyota imported 1.179 million vehicles in 2006.

Fact: Toyota imported 322,434 of which the average import cost would be well over $40,000.

Fact: Toyota keeps all of their import data very secret for obvious reasons.

What would you guess the average cost of a Toyota import to be?

 

As Toyota dealers and distributors acording to your numbers do it all for free I can only assume all GM dealers and distributors do much the same?
I also assume there has been $0 investment into North America by Toyota?
Acording to your numbers GM imports over 1,000,000 vehicles into the United States!!!

Toyota sell more units in Australia than GM does and they are on a level playing field apart from the fact General Motors Holden promote themselves as THE Australian car maker.

What is the dollar value of wheat, and other grain exports from USA to Japan? Do you wonder if the US government decided to isolate the US vehicle industry and allow the likes of GM to produce even crappier cars, that Japan might look for another country to buy it's food from?
It is estimated 850,000 pig carcases will be exported to Japan from USA, http://www.econ.iastate.edu/outreach/agric...troduction.html
This one is a bit old but it illustrates my point: - Japan is the largest importer of U.S. farm products. The U.S. Agriculture Department has estimated that Japanese buyers will purchase $9 billion of U.S. farm goods in fiscal 2000, which ends September 30, unchanged from the previous year.
from http://www.gene.ch/genet/2000/Mar/msg00029.html
A lot of farmers should be happy that Japan is able to sell cars into the USA. It also allows them to buy a decent truck to drive.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Oct 10 2007, 10:38 AM) [snapback]523611[/snapback]</div>

The United States has gotten the short-end of the stick in its trade relationship with Japan to the tune of $1.4 TRILLION dollars(not adjusted for inflation so the real number is over 2 trillion in todays dollars) since 1985. So if there had been no trade with Japan since 1985 the US would be $1.4 Trillion dollars better off.

The relationship has been the US buys 100 billion worth of Cars, electronics etc from Japan and Japan in turn buys 50 billion dollars worth of raw materials and food from the US. Great deal.

As for your GM import numbers, GM imported 47,904 vehicles from Korea and Australia in 2006 not over 1 million.

Toyota builds roughly 4 million vehicles a year in Japan and sells 1.5 million in Japan.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 11 2007, 01:21 AM) [snapback]523623[/snapback]</div>

Where did I mention how many car GM imports from Australia and Korea?
Your numbers said over 1,000,000 GM vehicles are made outside USA

Hill here are the REAL number through Sept 30,2007
...............................................General Motors
Built in the United States.............2,125,989
Built in Canada.............................616,451
Built in Mexico..............................360,246
Built in Japan or Korea.................... 74,904
Total outside USA ...........................1,051,601 units made outside USA
I know you are going to say these vehicles are mostly for domestic markets in the countries of manufacture but it is still GM exporting jobs.
Toyota could be making all their cars in Japan and still be selling into USA, they haven't exported one US job. How many jobs has GM sent out of USA?
From Wikipedia
North American employees and investments
Toyota directly employs around 38,340 people in North America. It has made around $16.8 billion in direct investments in North America. It has in total produced 14.8 million vehicles, 2.5 million vehicles sales (2005), 39.2 million total vehicles sales, and purchased $26.1 billion worth of "parts, materials and components" as of December 2005 in North America. It has 1,745 North American dealers and has given around $301 million as philanthropy to the United States since 1991. [26]
I don't think Toyota own the dealer network.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 11 2007, 01:21 AM) [snapback]523623[/snapback]</div>

Nice rounding of numbers, Toyota expect domestic sales of about 1.65 million units which is down on last year's sales and the peak domestic sales of 2.5M in 1990.