Tractor trailers are invisible

Discussion in 'Tesla' started by bwilson4web, May 18, 2019.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    So I did some daylight and night tests with my Model 3, version 8.5, and realize forward object detection does not use radar:

    • At no time does a 'ghost image' show up in front of the car, sides yes, but not in front
    • Dynamic cruise control was defeated by the need for parallel lines towards the test object
    In ordinary traffic, a crossing car or truck will trigger a hard brake. But why these are detected and the tractor trailer remains invisible is a mystery.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. dubit

    dubit Active Member

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  3. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    “Invisible” May be the wrong term.
    “Dismissed” May be a better one.

    The driver’s display only shows objects capable of movement.
    The system detects curbs (I’m assuming by the sonic sensors) but doesn’t display them.
    The latest version for me shows a warning when “construction” is detected, but the screen doesn’t show the cones or whatever it is detected that gives the computer the impression of construction.

    I suspect the cars detect an elevated rectangular object, which it confuses with an elevated road sign further away.
    If this is true, I am not sure why. It would seem to me that it wouldn’t be difficult to cross reference the camera and radar images to determine the distance.
     
  4. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    Might it be that the height of the truck body confuses the logic or even that the sensors are pointed/slanted downward and see nothing?

    And why don't you have your hands on the steering wheel and your eyes on alert in an environment where there could be vehicles crossing your path?
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    We're about to drive +600 mi to Richardson TX. I'll run more tests as opportunity occurs.

    Bob Wilson
     
  6. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    there's a sensitivity element not yet addressed on this thread. When ap2 was first activated, the cars would hard brake - even when it would see an overpass sometimes. Tell me THAT didn't piss off people - if they were following behind you on a freeway - as they're wonder, "what the heck this moron is doing?!?" But also, the cars would see most stopped objects in front of you, including higher semi trailers.
    Subsequent updates then allowed for our Tesla's to ignore most overpasses, but they began seeing very few semi trailers too. I think LIDAR would enable greater vision & detection - but musk has spoken in a hateful fashion against it.
    Tesla’s Elon Musk Trashes Lidar For Self-Driving Cars, But Waymo Is Rolling Out A New One
    .
     
  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    and nissan agrees with him
     
  8. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

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    And two deaths so far from under-running trailers because the cars couldn't detect the crossing trailer in front of them. You'd think this would be basic to the AI, since both trailers were moving across its path at the time.

    Bob, you don't have FSD or EAP, right? Just basic AutoPilot? Perhaps the next package up is better at detecting semi trailers?
     
    #8 DavidA, May 18, 2019
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  9. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Wrong. If your 747 pilot - while using autopilot, isn't watching - you don't blame the 747. It's the idiots fault flying the 747. Similarly - you sign a statement of understanding that your car is NOT self driving .... so it's not the car's fault that it doesn't detect all possible scenarios. Why? Because a CAR is NOT the responsible driver. YOU are. of course now days - our society is always looking to blame anyone other than self. Just watched a judge Judy. She lambasted the plaintiff for trying to recover for her dead inside/outside cat when it got run over. Guess who was responsible to keep CONTROL of her cat .... that's right .... the owner .... because it's foreseeable if you give up control ... bad things happen.
    :)
     
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  10. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    The two deaths had the primary cause being the human driver wasn't paying attention.
    The fact that AP didn't make up for the human drivers failure is a failure on it's behalf.
    I hope that gets better as time goes by.
    Meanwhile, I will continue to pay attention when driving :D
     
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  11. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

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    This is correct and an important fact in both of the trailer deaths, and also in the highway barrier death in California. The logs showed no hands on for more than 8 seconds prior in the second trailer death, and I believe longer in the first accident in Florida, as the nag tone and screen was ignored. And of course, it was much earlier AP software. The stand alone DVD player found in the wreckage with the DVD movie in it is another indicator that distraction was pretty much the main reason in the Florida accident.

    One thing though, the hands on indications in logs don't necessarily mean that a hand or hands weren't present on the wheel, or millimeters away, just that there wasn't enough pressure applied to show in the log. The second crash was a model 3, and they have that interior camera pointing towards the driver. That will play a part in the second death investigation, and perhaps one of the many reasons the newer cars have the interior camera as standard. Mainly, to protect Tesla from continued Autopilot lawsuits when they can prove driver inattentiveness.
     
  12. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    It will be a basic part of true self-driving vehicles, when they eventually arrive. But we just aren't there yet. Some people's expectations are getting ahead of technical reality.
     
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  13. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

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    But, but, but.. Someone is still predicting that full level 5 (and perfectly safe) self driving will be here late this year.

    [​IMG]

    I can see myself in a model Y in a few years, and I would probably buy the full EAP, or whatever they call it then, and even then I would not depend on it on a daily basis. Maybe it is my age, but all I'd want out of it is an additional level of awareness to help me get out of trouble if/when I do something stupid.

    But a whole lot of things must happen first.
    1) Tesla makes the Y's. Battery constraints could kill their plans for widespread adoption.

    2) Full self driving doesn't continue to climb in price. It is $8K right now ($2K "included" in the price + $6K extra.

    3) I can even sell my now hail damaged Prime (happened a couple days ago - da*n).

    4) insuring a Y isn't $2K per year as it is around here (based on the 3).

    5) Illinois doesn't enact this crazy $1K EV fine/penalty/extortion per year.
     
    #13 DavidA, May 18, 2019
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  14. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

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    Just stop it! No Elon is not predicting that. He is predicting that the car will drive itself with someone at the wheel to override the AP if it becomes confused. He has never said "level 5 and perfectly safe, self driving." Stop with the fake news.
     
  15. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

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    And Elon would still be wrong.
     
  16. Usle

    Usle Member

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    Actually, musk is claiming full level five in 2020

    Here are Elon Musk’s wildest predictions about Tesla’s self-driving cars - The Verge

    • Musk estimated that by the middle of 2020, Tesla’s autonomous system will have improved to the point where drivers will not have to pay attention to the road.
    • He said the company will roll out autonomous taxis next year in some parts of the US. The service will allow Tesla owners to add their cars to a Tesla network, which he said would be akin to Uber or Airbnb.
    • “We will have more than one million robotaxis on the road,” Musk said. “A year from now, we’ll have over a million cars with full self-driving, software... everything.”
    • These cars will be Level 5 autonomy with no geofence, which is a fancy way of saying they will be capable of driving themselves anywhere on the planet, under all possible conditions, with no limitations. There are no cars on the road today that are Level 5.
    • Tesla robotaxis could generate owners up to $30,000 a year in profit, Musk predicted.
     
  17. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    i LIVE for the failures of big dreamers -
    makes me feel smart. i get to say, 'see?' ..... 'toldja so'
     
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  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    LIDAR hardware alone would add thousands to the price, before doing the work of getting it working with the car.It needs to come down to the hundreds of dollars range before it will be seriously considered for a consumer car, which might be soon.

    As hill mentioned, the system would brake for overpasses. then while the truck was moving, the system may have trouble judging that with objects moving perpendicular to the car. The work isn't in getting the sensors to see things, but to have the software make judgement calls based on the incoming data.

    Did the trailers have those aero side shirts? There hasn't been a publicized incident out of Europe involving a Tesla and crossing semi, and those side shirts are mandatory there.
     
  19. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000

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    It should be noted that "pressure" on the steering wheel is not what the car requires. It is rotational... torque.
    You can have your hands tightly holding the wheel, not turning it, such as while driving completely straight and the car will warn you to hold the wheel. If you are holding the wheel and the car turns just a little your light resistance will be detected.

    Mike
     
  20. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

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    Then I misunderstood what the wheel sensors were picking up. If this is so, then why did the now infamous autopilot video with the orange jammed into the steering wheel, and holding it perfectly straight, work to not set off a warning?