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Traded 2013 Volt for New Prius HB

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by rudiger, Sep 7, 2013.

  1. rudiger

    rudiger Active Member

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    I'm back, and here's why:

    I previously had a 2006 Prius with nearly 100k miles that I traded on a 2010 Prius, which had around 60k miles when it was traded in on the Volt. My 2013 Volt had 31,516 miles when it left my hands.

    16,077 of the Volt miles were EV. Overall mileage was 76 mpg. That translates to 48.7% ICE and 51.3% EV (almost a 50/50 split) and, obviously bests the fuel mileage of the vast majority of any, normally driven, standard Prius HB. But it wasn't an effortless run. More on that in a moment. First the details:

    The Volt drives better, seats are better, and the interior materials definitely have a better quality feel than the Prius. Immediately, I had to readjust my driving to keep the Prius on track as it tends to 'wander'. The Prius doesn't handle as well as the Volt, nor is it as fast or ride as well (but not terribly worse).

    But the Volt quibbles:

    Auto Windows. For starters, the Volt doesn't have 'All Auto' windows. The only window that has an 'auto up' feature is the driver's. With any Prius, the windows all automatically go up and down.

    Button Response. The response to buttons (particularly 'Start') is nowhere near as good in the Volt as the Prius. It's amazing how such a small thing can be so noticeable. With the Prius, I press 'Start', and I'm either immediately ready to go or quit. In the Volt, there's always a momentary lag.

    Electronic Shifter. It's also real nice to be able to just push 'Start' and the transmission automatically goes into 'Park' in the Prius. With the Volt's mechanical shifter, there's a second required motion. Not a biggy, but it's there.
    Smart Key Availability. This one could go either way. My lower trim 2006 Prius had 3-door SKS, but the lower trim 3G Priuses all only have 1-door SKS. The (admittedly more expensive) Volt gets 3-door SKS across the board. OTOH, you have to press a small, chrome button on the Volt's door handles, whereas the Prius door handles are touch sensitive. A toss-up.

    Space Efficiently. I fully realize that the big battery in the Volt is the culprit. Still, the Prius simply has more interior room and cargo carrying ability, not least of which is a full-width rear bench seat.

    Default Recharge Time on 120v. This 'is' a biggy (to me, anyway). Without a 240v EVSE (which I'll get to in a minute), the fact that GM made the 2013 and newer models automatically default to the slow 8A setting every time the shifter is taken out of park is unforgivable. There are other threads debating this so I won't go any further.

    Cheap-nice person L2 EVSE. The cheap Voltec L2 that has a propensity to fail not long after the warranty expires, while not directly affecting how the Volt drives, is a strong indicator that GM still hasn't covered all its bases. Worse is when a Volt owner buys this POS in an effort to get around the 120v, 8A default.

    3.3kw Charger. Likewise, GM installing a weak 3.3kw internal charger instead of a 6.6kw (for whatever claimed reason) is pretty lame. The bigger charger would effectively solve much of the complaints about charge time.

    Charging Access, Home. My situation has changed and it's going to be difficult to maintain even a home base to charge the vehicle, even at the lame 120v rate. The requirement to have charger access, everywhere, to get the best fuel mileage, is quite an albatross to carry around one's neck.

    Charging Access, Other. I think if I had to pinpoint the single biggest reason for going back to a Prius, this would be it. Yeah, the Volt easily beats the Prius in fuel efficiency, but attaining those good numbers is another matter, entirely. The infrastructure (at least outside of California) simply doesn't exist that makes the Volt a viable, mainstream, single-car option for any kind of driving situation. I've had bad experiences at over 70% of the dealerships I've tried to get a charge from (and that includes Chevrolet). Until such time as there are very low cost EVSEs with prices not far above that of home charging, and they're available in many, easily accessible places, the plug-in requirement of even an EREV precludes them from being used in the same manner as a get-in-and-go hybrid where the propulsion system is behind the scenes.

    Simply put, the Volt, while the best GM has ever built and a vehicle which excels in 'most' respects (commuter, city driving), the flaws that crop up to achieve terrific mileage and driving long-distance just don't make it an all-around better single car choice than a Prius. As a second car, though, I think a Volt could be a superb choice.

    In fact, in those multiple vehicle families, a garage with both a Volt and a Prius seems like a nearly perfect situation (for best fuel efficiency, anyway).
     
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  2. cary1952

    cary1952 Member

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    Welcome back to the family! You have an excellent understanding of the logistics of owning a Volt because you have been there and done that!
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    great unbiased write up, thanks!(y)
     
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  4. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    Live and learn. :D
     
  5. jgilliam1955

    jgilliam1955 Sometime your just gotta cry! 2013 Prius 4.

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    Was not aware of those concerns. Thanks.
     
  6. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    Thanks for posting it here too. I knew you would take flack from some on the other forum but for every one of those people would will have a person on PC congratulating you. :)

    Not everything needs to be logical. We do what feels right for us. To hell with what anyone else thinks.
     
  7. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    OP, was the Volt end of lease ?
     
  8. Much More Better

    Much More Better Active Member

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    Great report. Thanks. Welcome home. :)
     
  9. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    Well it was bound to happen. While many drivers go the other way(P->V), someone had to be the first to go back from Volt to Prius. Many of your issues are minor, but if you put 31,000 miles on a 2013 in year are doing a lot of driving, no wonder you have issues with charging away from home. And if your home situation has changed to make charging unlikely, the switch back makes the some sense. How much did the swap cost you? Too bad you and F8L were a bit off in timing.. h

    I'd note GM does not make L2 chargers, so you cannot really blame them for SPX. However, the defaulting to 8kW on 120V would also drive me nuts (though I have a 2011 so its not an issue for me). If I had that I would likely have written a computer script to keep resetting it to 12kWh every 15min.. Maybe if enough people did that the huge onstar traffic would convince GM to make it a config option.

    The volt is not the ideal car for everyone. Nice that you gave it a try,. But given you were happy with a 06 and 10, have a lot of miles to drive and are loosing your place to charge, you'll be happy returning.
     
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  10. Bingee

    Bingee Member

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    Great review , welcome back
     
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  11. rudiger

    rudiger Active Member

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    Nope. Straight purchase deal. Are there any leases that would allow that kind of mileage in a 10 month period (at a reasonable rate)? If so, I might have went that route. At the rate I was going, I likely would have eclipsed 36k miles (or gotten very close) in a year.

    While it's true that GM does not make the SPX Voltec EVSE, it is their recommended, authorized Volt EVSE and, apparently, the Voltec is made to GM specifications, which seem to be of a very sketchy magnitude. So although they don't technically make the Voltec, they're definitely deeply involved with them. For starters, the SPX Voltec has cheap, non-replaceable fuses. The culprit of many Voltec failures is nothing more than a blown fuse. Unfortunately, unlike any other EVSE, since the Voltec fuses can't be replaced (at least not easily), when one blows, the EVSE is rendered virtually unusable.

    It's worth noting that SPX wasn't long ago bought out by Bosch (who, oddly, has their own line of chargers). So, both the new Bosch EVSE and SPX are being sold concurrently by the same company, neither of which has a warranty greater than one year. It doesn't help matters any that the GM authorized process to have a L2 240v EVSE installed in a residence is an outrageously overpriced scam (but then you get an 'extended' three year warranty instead of just one).

    A computer script to constantly reset the Volt software to 12A is a good idea, except it can't be done remotely through OnStar. The fact that it can't be reset through OnStar has been mentioned as something that would alleviate some Volt owners ire at the default.

    There's a poll at gm-volt.com on this topic and the percentage of responses disliking the default hovers near 90% (the last I saw, it was just under). I'm baffled by the 10% or so who think it's a good idea. It wouldn't be so bad except it resets back to 8A every time the vehicle is taken out of park. Not only that, but you have to drill down through a couple of menus to get to the charge rate toggle on the car. As you mention, on the earlier 2011-2012 Volt, the charge rate was not determined in the software, but a button on the EVSE (which did not reset every time the EVSE was plugged in). It's also worth noting that the earlier EVSE was made by a different supplier (Lear) than the later, software-controlled EVSE made by Clipper Creek. Lear is also the supplier of the cheap SPX 240v L2 EVSE.

    Maybe the 10% who like the repeated default to the lower charge setting would be even happier if the charging was at an even lower (and, presumably, safer) rate. The hot-selling [sarcasm] Mitsubishi i-MiEV would probably suit them perfectly. At 8A, it takes 21 hours to fully recharge a depleted battery in one of those.

    GM is obviously concerned about their liability should some nimrod burn their house down while their Volt is plugged into the L1 120v portable EVSE (there's one guy on gm-volt.com that really did fry an old outlet at 12A - he's a big advocate of the default and I'm certain his photos of the burnt receptacle have convinced others), but they could have made the factory setting 8A, and if the owner had the ability to reset it to the higher 12A setting permanently, well, any liability would then be on the owner from that point forward. Hell, they could even include a disclaimer in the owner's manual to that effect.

    My favorite responses to any complaints about the default were the ones that said, "Quit complaining. If you don't like it so much, sell your Volt" (and that was actually from a moderator).

    $4k.
     
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  12. K9CRT

    K9CRT Junior Member

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    Not to hijack this thread but the bottom line is, you still can't trust GM quality. I am retired from a GM dealership and wanted to buy a Volt before purchasing my Prius. I test drove a Volt and it is a great driving vehicle. But all the quality control issues that GM have had in the past and present kept me away. You sit in a coffee shop and ask a owner of a GM product what kind of luck they are having and they will tell you "its a great truck, car" then they ponder for a moment and say " well I did have to replace the fuel pump in that truck @ 35k, transmission @ 65k, etc n but other than those minor problems its been a dandy vehicle ! And the worse part of this story is these people who have never owned a Toyota, Honda, think this is normal. There will never be a Volt in my future if I deem I need a plug in it will be a Prius.

    I have a friend who has both a Prius (gen2) and a Leaf. He is very interesting to talk too. They are getting about 75-85 miles on a charge with the Leaf and overall are happy with it. He does report the heater is not the best and a couple of other minor things but seems very happy with it.
     
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  13. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Rudiger, glad you found the car that best fits your needs.
    If you have not, I would hope that you would write/email GM directly and give them your review.

    The forced 8 Amp has been a big issue for a number of people and I think is one of the biggest failings of the Volt.

    The 10% you refer to probably don't like it either. I suspect those 10% think it is a good idea to prevent idiots that don't have their wiring checked before charging plugin vehicles from burning down their house.

    As for the infrastructure, it is perfect for some people, awful for others. It all depends on driving patterns. I'm here in the Midwest. Public infrastructure is minimal, but for me it is perfect. Hopefully as it expands it will become good/better/best for more and more people each year.
     
  14. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    The forced 8amp charging was very annoying. I eventually upgraded to a level 2 charger. Now I almost never charge at level 1.
     
  15. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    I think you made a number of valid points however, on the other hand....

    1. The 240v L2 EVSE was half the price ($500) of the 240v EVSE units available from Nissan or other plugin car makers or early 3rd party products which were $1,000 or more. For the few people who had failures with the GM/Lear/SPX unit they could either get it replaced free under warranty within the first year or pay another $500 and would still have paid no more for the EVSE hardware than someone with a LEAF 240 EVSE from Nissan. My own Voltec 240v EVSE is still working fine after a year of daily use.

    2. The high quotes for 240v EVSE installation from SPX were typical of installation costs from other faceless installer companies arranged by Nissan etc. They make the process easy but you aren't required to use them. You can hire your own electrician to do the install. I was able to wire my own plug for hookup to an existing but unused electric dryer plug in my garage for the cost of a few parts at the hardware store.

    3. The software controlled 120v charging rate in the 2013 Volt is independent of the 120v EVSE. The old cord presumably works fine with a 2013 Volt and I know the new cord works fine with a 2011 Volt. The EVSE knows nothing about any software controls in the car. It just tells the car what rate it is capable of and the car then chooses the actual rate to use. The button on the old Lear 120v cords just caused that unit to tell the car it was only capable of charging at 8A or 12A. The new 120v cord always tells the car it can supply 12A and car chooses what to do.
     
  16. VicVinegar

    VicVinegar Member

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    Infrastructure and "base" charging time is what kept me away from the Volt. If I could have charged at the office, it would be a game changer, but I can't. Plus the time between me getting home from work some days and heading back out the next morning might not have been enough to get a full charge without upgrading chargers. I have a detached garage, and I suspect it would have required some extensive electrician work to upgrade.

    GM has had their troubles, but I wasn't worried about quality too much. With the Volt in particular, they seemed to realize they need to get that one right and Volts breaking down is not what they needed. When there was that potential battery issue, they told all the Volt owners they could come get whatever the wanted as a loaner while they figured out the battery complaint.
     
  17. John H

    John H Senior Member

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    I don't think the default to 8A was to protect the Volt owner's home as much as it was to avoid drawing too many amps when plugged in away from home. Occasionally drawing 12A from your parents older home, or a friend's outdoor outlet is the concern.

    I went back and forth between a Volt and a Prius several times this past year. My biggest complaint is that I keep forgetting to put gasoline in the Prius. I got somewhat addicted to having a full battery every morning and driving for months, and thousands of miles, without ever visiting a gasoline station.

    My second biggest complaint is that the Prius is just noisy, in the city or on the highway. I can't carry on a phone conversation with a hands free unit in the Prius so I constantly have to park and turn off the Prius.
     
  18. mmmodem

    mmmodem Senior Taste Tester

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    Thanks for the review. From what you wrote, Volt still seems like the better car for me. Space efficiency is not too much of an issue as I have another larger car. With a 10 hour charge time, I definitely would've upgraded to L2 in order to keep my charge time within off peak hours to save on electricity costs. I went with the PiP because it was cheaper last year and for the 5th seat. Work cannot guarantee me a charging spot making the PiP, Hobson's Choice. I'd gladly give up auto up down windows for fewer gas station visits.
     
  19. rudiger

    rudiger Active Member

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    Well, since I did plenty of ragging on the Volt already (and it's pretty damn good for a GM product), I refrained from mentioning that I did have two warranty claims with it (which didn't happen with any of the four Toyota products I've had prior to my current Prius):
    1. The steering rack had to be replaced at 5k miles. The issue was there was a slight resistance 'bump' after prolonged (over 30 minutes) highway driving. It occurred when performing minor lane keep adjustment, i.e., a minor course correction to keep the vehicle centered in a highway lane. It was annoying at best, and dangerous, at worst, since there was a potential to overcorrect and the car could wander over the lane line into another, occupied lane. It was in the shop for a couple weeks (waiting on single-use bolts) and since the repair, the problem has not reoccurred. OTOH, it's not particularly reassuring that such a major component had to be replaced on a car in its third year of production, even one as high-tech as the Volt. It should be noted that a few Cruzes seem to be experiencing a similar problem as the steering assembly is a supposedly similar manner.
    2. The other issue was a bad coolant sensor. GM has (correctly) taken great pains to ensure that the battery maintains a proper temperature and anything that even remotely might affect the battery's temperature will take extreme measures to save the battery, up to and including shutting the car down. When the coolant sensor went out, I was unable to charge (error message was "Service High Voltage Charge System") but I could still drive with ICE-only operation. It, too, was repaired under warranty within a week.
    The bottom line is that, yeah, it's still a GM product, and even as many strides as they've taken in improving quality, until they get an established track record like Toyota (today's Toyota quality didn't just happen overnight - it was established over a half century ago, way back in the seventies), there's always going to be that question mark with the purchase of any new GM product.
     
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  20. rudiger

    rudiger Active Member

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    All things being equal, the Volt is a better choice than the PiP, at least now with all the available incentives. I think they're very close in price (the Volt might even be under a PiP with the larger tax credit). While I have no doubt there are circumstances where the PiP could be a better choice, I would guess they're quite narrow in scope. Honestly, my best guess as to why anyone chose a PiP over a Volt, at all, was the GM quality fear (quite a valid reason, considering their track record). From what I can gather, the Ford C-Max Energi is even more of a compromise, with a bit longer range than the PiP, but at the price of an overly intrusive battery that sucks up a lot of rear cargo space.

    In short, for those seeking the closest thing to a mainstream ICE-only vehicle, but with the added benefit of EV capability, the Volt is still about the best choice for most. Even the undoubtedly expensive (but small) BMW i3 just now coming online seems less practical, with its longer 100 mile EV range, but very short ICE range of only another 100 miles (and that's via a quite small 650cc motorcycle ICE).
     
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