Traditional oil vs. synthetic.. any opinions?

I'm glad to see this thread go active again, because I am coming up on the first oil change tomorrow. I am taking it to the dreaded dealer. I have bought 4 quarts of Mobil 1 Extended. Is this new Extended variation okay? It is 5w30 and costs even more than the stuff that doesn't say Extended.

I am also looking for suggestions about enforcing that the service dept. not put all 4 quarts in, rather only the required 3.5 quarts. I was worried that they would just steal my oil for their own use and put their oil in, but then others suggested that I demand the empties back. In this case, I want 3 empties and one half full quart back. I am wondering if there are any other tips.

jen

 

Have you considered taking one of the quart containers and putting 1/2 of the contents into another jar or bottle and giving your mechanic only 3 1/2 quarts??? If you do this, he will put in your car exactly the amount of oil you wanted

Keith

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jendbbay @ Jan 29 2007, 07:29 PM) [snapback]382623[/snapback]</div>

The extended is ok for the Prius. It really provides a benefit if you plan on extending your change interval (say to 10,000 miles). Otherwise, it will provide no enhancement as compared to the normal Mobil 1.

It is really easy to change the oil on a Prius - you might consider doing it yourself... then you will have full control of the process - and save the money to boot (which pays for the extra cost of the Mobil 1...)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dylandog @ Jan 28 2007, 10:36 AM) [snapback]381979[/snapback]</div>

1. Depends on the place. Probably some have it, some don't.

2. Yes. Synthetic lasts longer. But you will void your warranty if you extend your oil-change intervals beyond what the manual recommends. (5,000 miles for my 2004.) Also, if you go to a very long oil-change interval you should change your oil filter more often than your oil, because much contamination enters the oil through the air.

3. Toyota says it is okay to put synthetic oil in a Prius, but also says that once you begin using synthetic you must never go back to dino oil. (Just quoting Toyota here.) The consequence of this is that if you plan on selling your car, the use of synthetic now will force the next owner to continue to use it, which s/he might not want to do, thus diminishing the desirability of the car at re-sale. On the other hand, it would be more desirable to a person who prefers synthetic, knowing that synthetic had always been used. I use dino oil because I've seen no hard evidence that this particular car benefits from synthetic.

4. Other posters above have given more detailed explanations than I have.

Note that the HSD system in the Prius is unlike anything that's ever been in an automobile before. It allows the engine to run nearly always within its optimal range. The engine never lugs, because at low vehicle speeds the engine still turns at an optimal rpm, since MG1 can turn in lieu of the wheels. Also, the starting procedure is different: the engine is spun up to 1,000 rpm at reduced compression before gas and spark are provided. Compare that to a conventional engine where gas and spark are provided from the moment the starter cranks the engine.

For these reasons, the Prius engine, of all automotive engines, is the least in need of added protection. The harder an engine works, the more it benefits from superior oil. The Prius engine does not work very hard at all.

Some people have claimed an additional 1 or 2 mpg due to reduced internal engine friction, but I've never seen any hard data one way or the other.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jan 30 2007, 11:03 AM) [snapback]382801[/snapback]</div>

Would you care to include a reference? This doesn't sound right to me - personally I stick to the 5000 mile oil change interval, but I'm sure there are many who don't. Anyone else who knows the warranty terms can feel free to chime in.

 

Here's Toyota's answer...

http://toyota.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/toyota....amp;p_topview=1

From numerous UOA reports on PC, http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=2...mp;#entry379427, the results show that the synthetic oil tested are good up to 10k miles or more. After my warranty period ends, I will also start doing UOA and extended drain intervals with synthetic.

 

Ok, so what you just quoted from Toyota:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Jan 30 2007, 12:46 PM) [snapback]382845[/snapback]</div>

... seems to contradict this earlier statement:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jan 30 2007, 11:03 AM) [snapback]382801[/snapback]</div>

Toyota may recommend using plain old Dino oil, but there is NO mention of:
1) Voiding warranty with extended oil change intervals
2) Staying with synthetics in order to keep warranty.

 

Thank you for your help everyone. I had the oil change today. I hate dealers and dealership service departments. However, it seemed to go mostly okay. They returned the empties, plus one partially empty. Unfortunately, I never stopped to pour out half of the 4th quart into an oil container in my garage. So, this left them to do their best job at only using 3.5 quarts. They used 3.65 quarts instead. I have no idea why this is a problem. Something else for me to look up here on Prius Chat.
Plus, twice today, it seemed like the FOB didn't seem to do its magic when opening the driver's door. Both times, it had to be taken out of the purse/pocket and then held close. I'm wondering if we are headed into some sort of problem with that.

I have my first rattle, but I should post that elsewhere.

Thanks again,

jen

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jendbbay @ Jan 30 2007, 07:06 PM) [snapback]383052[/snapback]</div>

3.65 qt is no problem, don't worry! In fact, even 4qt is no problem either - but many of us are very picky! (I fill with about 3.75qt, and that's just what it takes to get the oil level to the top marker on the dip stick.)

 

I first started using synthetic motor, transmission, and axle oils around 26 years ago for one very simple reason: they still flow at -40. With something modern like a Prius, which apparently already uses a semi-synthetic WS fluid in the PSD, that's one less worry.

I've been a big believer in 0W-xx motor oils for cold weather use. Running my Prius first on Mobil 1 0W-30 and now on Mobil 1 0W-20, though it's getting hard to find again. Back when Mobil used to publish MRV data, at -40 the 0W-20 tested around 14,000 cP.

By contrast, their 0W-30 tested around 16,000 cP, Esso XD-3 0W-30 (A heavy duty synthetic designed for transport trucks and the like) around 26,000 cP. A conventional 5W-30 will fail the MRV limit of 60,000 cP usually around -25 C to -30 C

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Jan 28 2007, 02:00 PM) [snapback]381993[/snapback]</div>

When I first started my used oil analysis regime on my Prius, I had some warnings from the lab. The dealer and Toyota Canada naturally blamed my use of Mobil 1. After chasing many dead ends and around $100 in lab costs, they suggested I try to snag a sample of the dealer motor oil.

I did, and that stuff was nasty, clearly a bargain-basement crap that was contaminated to boot.

http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=14829

Makes you wonder why Toyota chose to lower the oil change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000 miles. Seems I recall some sludged up motors. Cheaper than using better oil in the dealerships, if the motor sludges past warranty they can claim "TFB you're SOL"

Most synthetic oils have far better additive packages and much higher reserve TBN compared to conventional oils. As an extreme example, a used TBN of Mobil 1 0W-30 at 10,000km had the same value as the fresh dealer crap oil.

As far as fuel economy, when I run Mobil 1 0W-20 in cold winter city driving, I consistently get around 8% better fuel economy. No difference on the highway though.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Jan 29 2007, 12:10 AM) [snapback]382161[/snapback]</div>

Actually Turbo oils (In aviation, a "Turbo" oil is intended for use in turbofan, turboprop, etc jet engines) are only synthetic.

The link you provided was for a rebuilder of conventional small aircraft aircooled piston engines, such as Lycoming and Continental. In the case of an air cooled piston aviation engine, running highly leaded avgas at a fairly constant load, a straight mineral oil works best.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(trilect @ Jan 29 2007, 09:49 AM) [snapback]382243[/snapback]</div>

I know what you mean, you can also experience similar problems with a powershift industrial transmission, or a commercial/industrial wet clutch as is common on tractors, caterpillars, etc.

It's really important to use a "friction modified" oil for something with a wet clutch, or the clutch material will become glazed. This also applies to a limited slip clutch pack in a rear end, say in a pickup truck or high performance car.

Here is a Mobil 1 designed just for motorcycles and wet clutch transmissions:

http://www.mobil1.com/USA-English/MotorOil..._4T_10W-40.aspx

Many synthetic gear oils - especially those used in commercial highway trucks - have warnings that they do NOT contain the proper friction modifiers for use in limited slip clutchpacks. So it's always best to ask, and if necessary use the recommended friction modifier additive.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jan 31 2007, 06:45 PM) [snapback]383624[/snapback]</div>

My only comment is that you consider using 0W30 rather than 0W20. The bottom number is viscoscity at 0C and as such represents your engine cold starting temperature. However, the top number is the 100C viscoscity and as such represents your engine near its operating temperature (regardless of ambient temperature).

Since the manufacturer selected 30 weight for the operating temperature - you should stay there. However, given your exceptional cold temperatures where you live, you are probably justified in a lower weight cold temperature oil.

As an interesting experiment, you might actually try to measure the temperature of the oil on a cold day, after running the car for quite some time (i.e., temperature has definitely achieved steady state). I would be curious how close the temperature is to 82 deg C (normal engine coolant temperature). Everything I said above is based on the assumption that engine oil is somewhere between 82 and 100 deg C.... if it isn't - well, we would have to rethink the above suggestions.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jan 30 2007, 10:03 AM) [snapback]382801[/snapback]</div>

There are two incorrect statements here. First, you will not void your warranty if you exceed the recommended OCI (oil change interval), at least not in the US on a car governed by US law. Under applicable federal law, if a manufacturer wishes to deny a repair that's claimed to be covered by a wty, the mfr bears the burden of proving that something that the owner (or some other 3rd party) did caused the damage at issue. From a practical perspective, it's probably best to follow the recommendations, if only to avoid getting into such a fight (even one you know you'd win in the end).

Let's take it a step further. Assume you really are risk-taker, and you put SAE 60 racing oil into your engine in the coldest part of the winter. Predictably, your engine blows up shortly thereafter. Toyota would WIN that claim denial if you challenged them in court (easy for them to prove the damage you caused). But here's the rub: your warranty is NOT void, but rather, is still in full force for the remainder of its term. So, if your MFD failed shortly after your little engine debacle, that item would still be covered under wty, as there's no way that the over thick oil caused it to fail.

The second error is the statement regarding oil filters. I live in an area where we have some dust exposure (occasional dirt road travel), AND I regularly send oil samples off for lab analysis. My wife's previous vehicle was an 01 Sequoia, on which I'd change the oil about once per year (which worked out to ~10k miles). I used the German made variant of Syntec, the 0w-30 grade (the one that's known as "German Castrol" by its cult following...). Anyway the particle counts on that oil (my most extreme run), as well as the PCs on the other labs I've done do not suggest any need to do oil filters early. Of course, someone in a truly dust plagued environment might have different results. For normal users, not a problem.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John in LB @ Feb 1 2007, 05:55 AM) [snapback]383780[/snapback]</div>

According to my Imperial Oil Product Information Handbook, the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) SAE J300 is the viscosity classification used for automotive and commercial engine oils. The actual pumping test is the ASTM D4684 MRV.

The "0W" rating applies to a motor oil that has a maximum MRV (Mini Rotary Viscometer) reading of 600 Poise - or 60,000 centiPoise - at -40 C. The MRV closely approximates low temperature, low shear rate, flow "yield" using a specially calibrated, temperature controlled device.

A "5W" rated oil has a maximum MRV yield of 600 Poise at -35 C. A "10W" oil has a maximum 600 Poise yield at -30 C and so on. The value of 600 Poise was empirically determined as the maximum yield beyond which an oil pump would fail to pump oil.

At a value of 600 Poise the oil is right on the verge of failing to pump, this is the maximum possible value you should consider for your lowest anticipated temperature. This value has been changed over the years, at one time it was considerably lower at around 350 Poise. Car makers determined "occasional" limits of 600 Poise wouldn't harm things too much. And if an oil pump drive shears off, that's usually off warranty and they'll claim "TFB you're SOL."

Imperial Oil/Esso is far more conservative when they recommend an oil for low temperature use. For example, they suggest -25 C as the absolute low limit for using a 10W-30 oil, and -30 C as the absolute low temperature limit for a conventional 5W-30 oil. For operation colder than that, and for most use up to about +20 to +30 C depending on motor design, a 0W-30 or 0W-40 are far more desirable.

The “top†number – as you call it – is a kinematic analog under low shear conditions at +100 C. A measurement is obtained in centistokes – or cSt – and falls under a range. The actual test is the ASTM D445 Kinematic series.

As an example:

An oil rated “30†(Straight 30, 10W-30, 5W-30, 0W-30, etc) must test out from about 9.3-12.5 cSt to be called a “30†oil. An oil rated a “40†must test out from about 12.5-16.3 cSt. An oil rated “20†must test out from about 5.6-9.3 cSt.

The HTHS (High Temperature High Shear) test is another test, and completely different from the kinematic test at 100 C. The HTHS is covered under ASTM D4683, and is run at 10 to the 6th shears/sec and an elevated +150 C temp test target. The value is recorded in cP or centiPoise.

An oil rated a “20†must have a minimum 2.6 cP value, an oil rated “30†must have a minimum 2.9 cP value. A “light duty†40 must have a minimum 2.9 cP value, and a “heavy duty†40 must have a minimum 3.5 cP value

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John in LB @ Feb 1 2007, 05:55 AM) [snapback]383780[/snapback]</div>

Well, when I’ve driven the 2 hours out to my hobby farm with the cruise control at 110 km/h, and the ambient temp of -30 C, upon arriving I’ve felt the oil pan.

It was cool to the touch.

The vehicles I’ve instrumented in the past have revealed very interesting values at temps of -25 C and especially down to -40 C. For example, the 1984 Ford F-150 I purchased new, in 1988 I put a temp sender in the oil pan, the C6 automatic oil pan, and a mechanical temperature bulb in the rear of the Edelbrock aluminum intake I put on.

Running a 180 thermostat in winter, a custom-made 5 row radiator, a 28,000 GVW rated transmission cooler, *and* a winter front to cover the grille, at -30 C I was quite surprised with the numbers.

The C6 automatic never got the Mobil 1 ATF hotter than 100 F, just off the bottom peg of the gauge. The sender in the 302 V8 oil pan stayed on the bottom peg. The Autometer gauge plumbed into the thermostat housing – there is a threaded fitting on the elbow that made it very easy to do – claimed 180 F. The bulb plumbed into the rear of the block at the Edelbrock manifold – where the coolant return from the rad enters – stayed on the bottom peg.

A lot of folks assume a car will magically keep whatever temp the thermostat is rated at, even at -40. In the old days, when cars had cast iron blocks and huge rads, they ran *way* too cool in temps of -20 C and colder, without a winter front. Now that cars and heaters are more maintenance-free and work better, folks have mostly forgotten about Winterization and about winter fronts.

I will say this, the Prius is a COLD BLOODED car. My first winter with the car, in temps of -40 C, I was so cold my pointy bits almost fell off. With the winter front, I now have plenty of heat even at -35 C, and the motor will – briefly – shut down at red lights.

As far as running an oil much “lighter†than Toyota recommends – a 5W-20 or 0W-20 is recommended for warranty for a lot of Honda’s and Ford’s out there. I can see one making the argument there is something special about a Honda motor compared to a Toyota motor.

But how about a V10 used in a Ford motorhome chassis? That also requires a 5W-20 or 0W-20. How often do they blow up??

If you search some of my posts about used oil analysis, I was VERY careful to do lab analysis running Mobil 1 0W-20 in my Prius. I actually had BETTER results – in winter – running 0W-20 compared to 0W-30.

I expected that too. In extremely low temps, the thinner and more free-flowing the oil, the better. Flow properties are much improved, lubrication is much quicker, and wear metals are much lower.

Consider a 0W-20 that will have an MRV of around 12,000 cP at -40 C, and a bargain-basement conventional 5W-30 spewed from my Toyota dealer tote bin that will test out 60,000 cP at -30 C. Which is better for the motor at -30 C and colder?

Yet Toyota insisted their garbage and *contaminated* mystery 5W-30 was wonderful stuff, at least until I gave them a copy of the lab analysis. Then they shut up, pronto.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Jan 28 2007, 12:00 PM) [snapback]381993[/snapback]</div>

I have since lost the link but there was a website that showed the inside of an engine mock-up that they would put both oils and run. After so much time you would be able to see the breakdown of the oil and how much some foamed. It also showed two engines pulled apart and the engine with synthetic looked almost brand new. He also conducted an experiment where he would not change his oil (but would replace any lost oil). He would take oil sample tests. He did this for 60k. Later he would test oils after oil an oil filter change after various intervals. I cannot remember his results off the top of my head. Anyone know the website? I think it was something like everythingoil...

I am not sure about the Prius but in my F250 shearing would cause my oil (synthetic and dino) to break down around 5k miles. Instead of 10w30 it would become 5w20. I did oil sample tests on every change. I talked to a few people on the F250 boards that said this was common.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tadashi @ Feb 1 2007, 10:14 PM) [snapback]384247[/snapback]</div>

Sorry I can't recall that website that ran all the lab tests on different conventional and synthetic oils. It was an eye-opener though, certainly challenged the "all motor oils are the same / all motor oils are good" belief.

Was your F-250 the older one with the 351 or 460 pushrod V8, or the newer one with the overhead cam V8 or V10? Ford knew what they were doing by developing specs for their Motorcraft 5W-20. Use of a conventional oil, especially a regular 5W-30, was horrible for the motor.

If Motorcraft 5W-20 had better cold temp specs, I'd use it year round in my Prius. It's a good motor oil - period

 

Nope it was a 2004 6.0L Power Stroke Turbo Diesel 32-valve V8. Maybe it was 5w-20 I used because I remember them putting in 10w-30 once it the engine sounded horrible. After about 5 miles I turned around and had them drain it and refill it when I noticed on the invoice what they put in it. The shearing reduced the 5w-20 but I cannot remember what it changed to.

 

Oh god, that motor should NEVER be run on a gasoline motor oil. The turbocharger alone will coke it all to hell. The fuel injectors are hydraulic unit type, which uses engine oil pressure to make them work. They will shear even most regular diesel motor oils.

This oil appears to hold up well for HEUI diesel motors:

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS...Truck_5W-40.asp

Folks running in Canada have also reported good results with this Canadian oil, especially the 0W-30 for winter startup:

http://www.imperialoil.ca/Canada-English/F..._Xd-3_extra.pdf

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Jan 28 2007, 10:33 PM) [snapback]382140[/snapback]</div>

Sure sounds good.

I can't see video on a dialup, but I see no performance comparisons. If I'm clicking past the data in error, please post direct url.

A really simple test would be measuring viscosity of regular and synthetic oils over the course of one oil change period. A relatively simple one would be using two brand new engines, take photo-micrographs of wear surfaces on both, run both for equivalent of X miles, then measure the wear. To have both done by an independent lab (important) would be the holy grail, and then I'd start buying synthetic and pushing it on everyone.

What I see here is what I see everywhere "we tested it extensively, and it was wonderful!"

In the end, I'd be happy to have a polymer chemist (as opposed to a salesman) explain how a regular hydrocarbon chain is any different than a synthetic hydrocarbon chain.

Here's why I think it's more religion than engineering. My expecting scientific proof offends people who love synthetic because it's an affront to what they believe in. It's like telling a Catholic that God doesn't exist, it tends to be offensive. On the other hand, it's reasonable to expect that something claimed to be so good, should have proof.

People have gotten 250-500k miles out of engines long before synthetic came on the scene. (Not that many cars can actually do that anymore...)
[/b][/quote]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Jan 28 2007, 10:33 PM) [snapback]382140[/snapback]</div>

Sure sounds good.

I can't see video on a dialup, but I see no performance comparisons. If I'm clicking past the data in error, please post direct url.

A really simple test would be measuring viscosity of regular and synthetic oils over the course of one oil change period. A relatively simple one would be using two brand new engines, take photo-micrographs of wear surfaces on both, run both for equivalent of X miles, then measure the wear. To have both done by an independent lab (important) would be the holy grail, and then I'd start buying synthetic and pushing it on everyone.

What I see here is what I see everywhere "we tested it extensively, and it was wonderful!"

In the end, I'd be happy to have a polymer chemist (as opposed to a salesman) explain how a regular hydrocarbon chain is any different than a synthetic hydrocarbon chain.

Here's why I think it's more religion than engineering. My expecting scientific proof offends people who love synthetic because it's an affront to what they believe in. It's like telling a Catholic that God doesn't exist, it tends to be offensive. On the other hand, it's reasonable to expect that something claimed to be so good, should have proof.

People have gotten 250-500k miles out of engines long before synthetic came on the scene. (Not that many cars can actually do that anymore...)
[/b][/quote]



I have to say, I agree with your skepticism. I'm sure there are benefits, but mostly in racing, and high reving engines. As with most things in our society, however, there is a ton of hype and not really much real hard proof, on paper. One of the guys referred to a Consumer Reports article years ago. I too read that article and have told people of it for years that have had questions.

As you all know, Consumer Reports is a completely unbiased testing faciltiy, and I have trusted their opinions for years. They performed a study on a large number of New York cabs, over a 75 thousand mile test, with synthetic, semi-synthetic, and regualr oils, and found no evidence to benefit using synthetic oils. In fact, they stated that the cabs with the synthetics had more break downs and major engine problems.

I have used Castrol GTX in all of my used cars for years and years, and had great results with it. I mostly had delivery jobs where I drove my own car, and this oil never let me down. I never had an engine break down on me, and I drove them hard, 40k miles a year. I bought a used 1989 Honda Accord with 120K miles on it. The first thing I did was put Castrol GTX 20-50 in it due to the high mileage. I drove for a 100k miles more and still sold it for $3000. I had to repair the typical oil leaks that Honda's have, but the engine never broke down internally.

My last 4 cars have been brand new, I keep them for a couple years, then trade them in. I lose my shirt each time due to depreciation, but I get bored of cars after two or three years. Knowing that, and my driving habits, which is to and from work, highway mileage, in a warm climate, it doesn't pay to use synthetic oil. My last two cars have been Ford trucks and they come with semi-synthetic oil. I'm approaching my first oil change on my 2007 Explorer Sport Trac with the V8 engine, and seriously considering going back to Castrol due to not seeing a difference in performance, mileage, or engine noise over past cars I've had.

I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade here, I believe there are specific applications for different oils, and each person has to decide which one to use per their own needs. For example, what is the climate where they live, how do they drive, what do they drive, how often to they drive, stop and go or highway, etc.

We are all going to have our own opinions and will use what we prefer in the end. My advice is to make your decision on your needs, not the hype.

 

How much does it affect resale to use synthetic when the service schedule calls for traditional?

That's my big worry.