Traditional oil vs. synthetic.. any opinions?

I appreciate everyone's responses. I still see a lot of references to inferences (on websites), particularly from companies that sell synthetic, but no data - no independent side-by-side comparisons. If anyone else can spot the pattern, please say so.

Really this is not a difficult experiment, especially for something that is purported to be so much more superior than regular oil.

If I've missed the independent tests in the posts, I apologize. Low signal to noise makes it easy to miss.

On the other hand, if people use synthetic simply because they "feel" it's best, that's a valid reason. Nobody can go through life with rigorous proof for everything. What irks me is what passes as proof to the consumer.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Feb 11 2007, 06:41 PM) [snapback]388689[/snapback]</div>

Look for Jayman's comments. He's been testing his oil with every change. At least he's convinced that Mobil 1 is much better than what his dealer provides. I'm going to start testing my oil now too, at least until I'm satisfied with what's being used.

Dave M.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jazzmann @ Feb 10 2007, 02:08 PM) [snapback]388079[/snapback]</div>

Keep in mind the SAE J300 assigns a "borderline" pumping of 600 Poise to a conventional 5W-30 at -30 C. Which means when it gets to -40 here, you're taking chances. Especially since a motor will never properly warm up in such extremely cold temps, a synthetic 0W-20 offers engine protection.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jazzmann @ Feb 10 2007, 02:08 PM) [snapback]388079[/snapback]</div>

Just make sure to use a 5W-20. Try something silly like a 20W-50, well, good luck.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jazzmann @ Feb 10 2007, 02:08 PM) [snapback]388079[/snapback]</div>

I've never believed in hype, but in facts. Hence my decision to perform routine used oil analysis. It was the virgin used oil analysis of the "good enough" dealer 5W-30 bulk oil that really convinced me.

I'm sure in a moderate climate where you never have to worry about -40 winters, a conventional oil will do just fine. Even in a severe climate like mine, I still use common sense.

For example, the 1984 Ford F-150 with 302 V8 at my hobby farm, with 530,000 km on the motor. I did run it most of its life on Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40, which is a synthetic heavy duty diesel motor oil. Ford 302 V8's of that vintage seemed to run best on a 40 oil.

But once I stopped driving it daily, it would have been crazy to run something as expensive at Delvac 1. So I switched to Esso XD-3 Extra, running 15W-40 in summer and 0W-40 in winter. I'd offer the opinion that for the vast majority of cases, an oil like XD-3 Extra is excellent, with a price 1/3 name brand synthetics.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(allargon @ Feb 11 2007, 09:28 PM) [snapback]388658[/snapback]</div>

The average person probably wouldn't know the difference and could care less

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Feb 11 2007, 10:41 PM) [snapback]388689[/snapback]</div>

I specifically responded to your request a few posts ago, with links to my used oil analysis. Please feel free to actually read them.

 

I have done a lot of reading about engine oil over the years and have found that synthetic oil is better than traditional oil. Amsoil is a company that cares about making better oil, the tests that they post on their site are a good representation of various oils strengths and weaknesses. I have not seen any real proof that Amsoil's tests are bogus or seriously flawed. Some people change "dino oil" every 2000mi and say that it is good for the engine, I will change mine one time a year with synthetic and a good filter (Mobil 1 Ext Per, Amsoil), saving resources and time.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Feb 11 2007, 09:41 PM) [snapback]388689[/snapback]</div>

Here is one site with a lot of testing data

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

And here is a link to a discussion on the pelican part forum (Porsche).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread....nthetic+testing

I think good grade non-syn oil is fine. I use what ever they fill it with in my Honda and Toyota. I do use Mobil 1 synthetic in the Porsche (because it is factory recommended and it's a $15k engine.) and a couple of other hi performance engines. I use synthetic in the prius, because I feel more comfortable over an extended oil change internal and it doesn't cost much more (only 3 1/2 qts!)

 

When I bought my car last month the dealer said my warranty would be voided if I went past 5K miles between oil changes. Based upon this thread that statement seems to be in question, but let's say for a moment that it would be a warranty-breaker. How could you change your own oil & filter without voiding the warranty? There would be no record of it being changed.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clearview22 @ Feb 12 2007, 08:52 AM) [snapback]388817[/snapback]</div>

Well, the real knock I have against Amsoil is that they always seem to present themselves as a MLM (Multi Level Marketing) company. That really turns me off.

As far as testing, the one test they really brag about for their motor oils is the Four Ball Wear Scar test. I do industrial process control, and I'm familiar with the Four Ball test for rating a grease.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cobra9 @ Feb 12 2007, 05:05 PM) [snapback]389089[/snapback]</div>

I'm sure it is. I'm a big fan of Esso XD-3 Extra, a heavy duty diesel engine oil. For a third the price of Mobil or Castrol Syntec, you get a proven oil.

But how do you define "good grade?" I spent around $100 in lab fees chasing down the cause of a bad used oil analysis result for my Prius. It turned out the bulk oil my dealer was using, it was complete crap. But Toyota Canada and the dealer blamed the use of Mobil 1 for the bad oil analysis.

Once I presented Toyota Canada and the dealer with the virgin oil analysis of their crap bulk oil, they shut up. Pronto.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alan D @ Feb 12 2007, 06:58 PM) [snapback]389155[/snapback]</div>

Well, when you go to purchase the oil and filter, there will be a paper trail. Save the receipts. Forum member Galaxee suggested writing the date and VIN on the receipts as well.

It would be up to Toyota to prove that the oil you used, or poor maintenance on your part, contributed to an engine problem. Even if it did, the remainder of the warranty is still in effect. Contrary to popular belief, the car maker cannot cancel an entire warranty because of a specific issue.

One thing you may be curious to know about: when Toyota realized they had a few motors - though apparently not the Prius motor - with sludging issues, they had a very interesting response. Rather than insist on better grade oil to resist sludging, they cut the oil change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000 miles.

How many new modern vehicles have an oil change interval that short? Especially when you consider the Prius sold in the EU usually has a 12 month or 10,000 mile oil change interval.

Remember, I went through about 4 months of BS trying to track down a suspect used oil analysis. Toyota Canada and the dealer firmly stood by their belief my use of Mobil 1 was the reason, even suggesting my motor was doomed to a short life, then expensive replacement.

I was able to get a sample of the dealer oil from the bulk lube dispensing system.

It turned out to be absolute garbage. When I presented Toyota Canada and the dealer with my results, they shut up at once. Nothing like catching somebody in a lie.

In our frigid winters, especially the -35 C lows we've been having, a crap oil like that will almost certainly make sludge. Most good synthetics will NOT make sludge at -35 C.

Keep something else in mind: if you live in a very cold winter climate like I do, the API "minimum spec" oils technically are not even certified for that sort of use. The borderline pumping temperature of a bargain basement 5W-30 is usually reached by -30 C. Anything colder than -30 C, they can claim "TFB you're SOL" or you're on your own.

One last point: the API testing regime has no requirement to prevent cold stuck rings due to sludge formed during extreme cold weather operation. The EU oils that must meet ACEA specs certainly do provide testing requirements that prohibit cold stuck rings.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Feb 11 2007, 10:31 PM) [snapback]388754[/snapback]</div>

You mean this?

<div align="center">"You folks may recall about 1-2 months ago I posted the results of a UOA (Used Oil Analysis) on my 2004 Prius. I had run Mobil 1 0W-30 for a bit over 8,000km, and the wear metals were remarkably low. The TBN was still +7, so the oil was clearly good for much longer intervals.

The only concern was a high Na level, around 78 ppm. A "normal" reading would be under 20 ppm. I followed up with another UOA at half-interval (4,000km) and the Na was 15 ppm. ?? That didn't make any sense.

I then managed to talk the dealer into filling the 120ml sample bottle with their bulk Mystery Oil 5W-30 from the tote bin dispenser system. I had the results back almost a month ago, but was in China on business, and then had to deal with a family tragedy.

Long story short: the dealer oil, which the car ran on for the first two oil changes, had a virgin Na level of 398 ppm! The testing lab had quite a few issues with that oil, including a bit of moisture, some dirt, Fe (Iron), and even some sulfur. Clearly, this is a VERY poor quality oil."</div>

Then a later post where the test report had stated detection of "Su".... which is what? Typo for Sulfur? Silicon?

Wear metals were low, compared to the other prius you ran with conventional oil or .... ? Did that give you better gas mileage than the control? Would that wear matter? TBN at +7, would conventional oil have been the same or not? 78 ppm of Na means what for gas mileage or engine life?

You've gone further than anyone else in that you actually did test oil. Now for a test against a control over many miles. Keep in mind that all I personally really care about is gas mileage and engine life. I'm not sure what other qualities matter in motor oil although if there are others, I'd be interested in hearing them.

 

The used engine oil analyses spreadsheet has been most recently updated here:

http://priuschat.com/index.php?act=Attach&...ost&id=6285

It is not yet definitive on conventional vs. synthetic oils, but may be fair to suggest that for people adhering to 5k mile oil change intervals there is not a strong incentive to use synthetic. Folks like me who run oil for 12k miles are probably going to use synthetic.

Used oil analysis is a big topic, but briefly:

Wear metals - you don't want them. In almost all cases so far, Prius does not produce them.

Silicon (and sometimes sodium) can indicate that the air filter is letting dirt through. However, first oil changes have Si from engine sealants. Sometimes a dash of copper as well.

Water, fuel and antifreeze are evidence of oil contamination, need to change it, and to track down the problem. No Prius problems yet. Some of these can arise from improper oil sampling, so follow the instructions.

Viscosity increase or exhaustion of total base number (TBN) indicates that the oil needs changing.

The highest use of oil analyses is to follow trends over time for a particular engine.

Might be nice if a thread with that spreadsheet got made into a 'sticky' so that people new to the topic could find it easily.

 

At this point I really can’t determine if you’re genuinely interested in learning about used oil analysis, or if you are being sarcastic. I’ll assume you genuinely are interested in learning.

As I have around 25 years experience in industrial process control, including designing and commissioning automated oil sampling systems, I do tend to throw in abbreviations and terminology that may be unfamiliar to the layperson. If you do not understand any particular abbreviation or term, please say so.

Regarding the importance of used oil analysis, over half a century of empirical testing with correlation to actual machine disassembly comparative analysis, has proven the statistically strong correlation between used oil analysis values and machine/motor health. Rather amazing from a 120 ml sample how one can determine problems with air filters, leaking injectors, atmospheric contamination, slow coolant leaks, etc.

The original topic of “conventional†vs “synthetic†I was careful to qualify: for the *average* driver in a *moderate* climate, given the ridiculously short Prius oil change interval, there probably isn’t any difference. Assuming the oil used is of reasonably high quality.

As I determined after chasing a lot of dead ends tracking down some odd used oil analysis values, including an “urgent†Na/sodium reading, the dealer bulk oil was absolute crap. It was even *contaminated!* I did suggest – in writing – a breather vent filter to minimize dust/moisture problems in the dealer bulk oil tote bin, but over a year later they haven’t. I haven’t noticed a breather vent desiccant filter on any other local shop tote bin either, be it Ford, GMC, Honda, etc.

As you may be aware, Toyota dropped the oil change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000 miles. I strongly suspect they got burned by a handful of sludged motors. The same motor in the Prius sold in the EU has a normal 12 month or 10,000 mile oil change interval, running an ACEA spec oil.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Feb 13 2007, 10:28 AM) [snapback]389443[/snapback]</div>

Yes that was a typo on my part. I’ll get into the habit of typing replies into my word processor, then cutting and pasting into the forum. I meant to type “sulfur†but for some reason only typed the first two letters. The correct periodic table symbol for sulfur is S.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Feb 13 2007, 10:28 AM) [snapback]389443[/snapback]</div>

I have yet to contrast to other Prius cars running a conventional oil. I’m hopeful a couple of Prius owners in Winnipeg are willing to assist me with this venture: I’ll pay for the oil analysis, all I need is about a minute of their time and 120 ml of oil from their sump.

However: contrasted to the oil changes I had done at my dealer, running their crap contaminated dealer oil, and Mobil 1 that I provided, wear metals running Mobil 1 went down a statistically significant amount, especially Si. I had thought the Si was from the air intake having a leak, or perhaps from my routine removal and inspection of the air filter. Turned out the dealer crap oil had a lot of Si, probably the result of atmospheric contamination.

As I stated previously, the dealer used an approx 300 litre plastic tote bin located on the exterior wall of the shop to provide the lube oil for oil changes. That approach can save a dealer a lot of money and provide higher margins for oil changes.

After getting back the really awful virgin oil analysis, I even requested a resample. The results were almost identical. By this time the dealer was aware of my industrial process control background, so allowed/encouraged me to inspect their bulk lube dispensing system.

The first thing that caught my eye was the fact the exterior tote bin had the “standard†breather vent, which is a pipe with a 180 degree bend in it. Not sure if it had a screen to keep bugs out, and quite frankly that wouldn’t have made any difference. Oh, there is also a gravel lot next to the dealer where tractor trailers park, in summer a lot of dust is stirred up.

Just having an open breather allows a lot of moisture to get drawn in, in addition to the expected condensation from having an exterior tank. The virgin oil analysis had excessive free moisture. Dust is also drawn in.

Only a desiccating breather filter can prevent such contamination, and I’ve had quite a bit of experience specifying them on exterior tank farm agitator gearboxes. Wouldn’t have cost them more than $150, yet they never did follow through.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Feb 13 2007, 10:28 AM) [snapback]389443[/snapback]</div>

On the highway either summer or winter, I’ve noticed no statistically significant fuel economy difference between the dealer crap oil, Mobil 1 0W-30, or Mobil 1 0W-20. A poster on this forum has commented a Jiffy Lube inadvertently put in a much heavier oil, I believe it was a 20W-50, and had dramatic fuel economy loss.

In winter, especially in temps of -25 F and colder, Mobil 1 0W-20 has provided a fairly consistent 8% fuel economy improvement over Mobil 1 0W-30. The 0W-30 provided around 4% improvement winter city driving over the crap dealer oil.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Feb 13 2007, 10:28 AM) [snapback]389443[/snapback]</div>

Over the short term, say under 20,000 miles, probably not. However, the testing lab was concerned about it especially given the frequent service history. I should note my wear metals are now low and trending lower.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Feb 13 2007, 10:28 AM) [snapback]389443[/snapback]</div>

First of all, there are two methods to test reserve TBN or Total Base Number. Apparently, Toromont Caterpillar in Mississauga, Ontario, uses a different method than Blackstone Labs in the U.S., the result being my TBN will be consistently 3-4 points higher than a Blackstone test with the same source oil.

TBN is useful to control acidic buildup in a motor oil. Acid buildup – primarily caused by cold short trip operation – can attack polymeric additives in most conventional motor oils. The result of the additives breaking down is sludge and varnish underneath the piston crown land, on the piston pins, and in the piston ring land(s).

Virtually all synthetic motor oils are highly resistant to that sort of sludge/varnish production. Most conventional heavy duty diesel motor oils, such as Esso XD-3 Extra, are also highly resistant to such sludge/varnish production.

For a similar oil change interval, a conventional motor oil tested by my lab may test out under 3, or all but used up. The synthetic I use may test out 5-7, which is still good for a few thousand more miles.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Feb 13 2007, 10:28 AM) [snapback]389443[/snapback]</div>

One must determine the source of the sodium or Na to answer a question like that. Empirical data has strong correlation that a very high Na result, especially a spike over otherwise routine test intervals, is indicative of a slow internal coolant leak.

If it’s a slow coolant leak, one has time to repair the problem before the Na can result in sludging, bearing damage, or ultimately a destroyed motor.

However, more recently, cheap conventional oils have substituted sodium alkyl aryl sulfunate as an inexpensive additive emulsifier and as a corrosion inhibitor. Under normal conditions the sodium alkyl aryl sulfunate will work as expected.

However the testing lab I use was very concerned about finding this in the oil. As they primarily do oil tests from commercial heavy duty diesel motors, it has been their experience that sodium alkyl aryl sulfunate can contribute to cylinder liner erosion near the o-rings, and in severe cold weather operation – like Winnipeg most of January and February – can form excessive sludge deposits underneath the piston crown land, and in the piston ring lands.

For the average driver in a moderate climate, there will be no difference in fuel economy, and “probably†no difference in motor life. In a severely cold climate like mine, there will be no fuel economy difference. However there could be shorter motor life due to sludge buildup

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Feb 13 2007, 10:28 AM) [snapback]389443[/snapback]</div>

I have confidence in tests performed by Imperial Oil Canada, as they have researched the effect of different oil formulations over millions of test kilometers. However, I don’t have the time, patience, or spare cash to indulge in such a test with my personal vehicle. I’ll trust the cold hard facts of my oil analysis to form my personal idea of what type of oil to use, and how often I should change it.

As another qualifier, keep in mind that the opinions I offer are naturally biased to the experience I have in a severe climate. Over the past 6 weeks, our overnight lows have consistently been -25 to -35 F, with one night -39 at my condo, and -41 at the airport. Highs have not been above -10 F for almost 4 weeks.

In such an environment, I want the thinnest possible synthetic oil to protect my motor, which means a 0W-20. I’m aware that mention of 0W-20 must horrify those living in Florida, or California. One must chose products based on expected climatic conditions and on expected use.

If you wish, we can continue the discussion of motor oil tomorrow.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tochatihu @ Feb 13 2007, 09:31 AM) [snapback]389488[/snapback]</div>

That's an excellent idea. Even if a number of posters put in oil tests from a variety of cars, with and without using synthetic, we may be able to draw some conclusions on total wear. Gas mileage would be harder to
determine.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Feb 13 2007, 07:20 PM) [snapback]389907[/snapback]</div>

Genuinely interested in seeing proof that synthetic provides a measurable improvement in gas mileage or engine wear over regular oil. I'm probably going to be pretty blunt about what qualifies as "proof" however. To provide unequivocal evidence, the only real test is two identical engines, running in controlled identical conditions, one with synthetic oil, other with regular. It's already odd (suspicious?) that this hasn't been done. There are certainly other approaches which can "suggest" one is better than the other, if there is enough data. After being pointed to endless websites with forums full of "this stuff is the best!" I'm anxious for actual evidence.

Edited for brevity and relevance (re-add if you disagree with the edit)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Feb 13 2007, 07:20 PM) [snapback]389907[/snapback]</div>

Please define what is statistically significant. Do you have reason to believe that those numbers would have shortened the life of the engine or reduced gas mileage more than regular oil? (Keeping in mind that not everyone's regular oil has been contaminated)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Feb 13 2007, 07:20 PM) [snapback]389907[/snapback]</div>

This is my conclusion (so far) also. If we change our oil regularly, and flush with something like a BK product, sludge should not be an issue.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Feb 13 2007, 07:20 PM) [snapback]389907[/snapback]</div>

Any evidence for synthetic superiority would always be welcome.

 

On the highway either summer or winter, I’ve noticed no statistically significant fuel economy difference between the dealer crap oil, Mobil 1 0W-30, or Mobil 1 0W-20. A poster on this forum has commented a Jiffy Lube inadvertently put in a much heavier oil, I believe it was a 20W-50, and had dramatic fuel economy loss.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Feb 14 2007, 10:30 AM) [snapback]390136[/snapback]</div>

I’m going to try this one last time.

Again, I have provided proof in the used oil analysis, the INDUSTRY STANDARD method of doing so. For some reason you chose not to believe in it. Quite frankly, I’m not going to engage in a long and drawn-out lecture series that will probably be pointless in the end.

It is astronomically expensive to do destructive machine tear-down analysis, especially SEM unless you’re doing Failure Mode Analysis or Damage Mode Analysis, so it isn’t done very often. A statistically strong correlation of used oil analysis to actual machine tear-down analysis has resulted in massive empirical evidence.

I’ve been doing the industrial scene for almost 25 years, and long ago abandoned the “faith†based approach to equipment maintenance. I prefer hard facts, which means the PROVEN used oil analysis routine.

However, a few companies have provided detailed results of actual machine tear-down to (again) correlate the used oil analysis findings. Esso has provided extensive analysis of heavy equipment run on various Esso XD-3 versions, at recommended oil change intervals, with comparison to tear-down wear analysis at 500,000-1,000,000 km, to provide Proof Of Concept and (again) strong correlation of used oil analysis results to actual tear-down analysis.

Exxon has also done the same with various industrial agitator gearboxes and high speed drives, eg paper machine roller drives. I’m aware of Amsoil providing a legitimate analysis of a Mack heavy truck motor comparison over about 500,000 miles, which if I recall involved only filter changes no actual oil changes. The parts were examined and determined within “new†specs.

To get access to the plethora of real-world results contrasting equipment run on conventional oils vs synthetic oils, please visit a local industrial lubricant distributor. At least here in Canada, the Esso, Petro Canada, Texaco, and Co-Op industrial lubricant distributors will readily hand over such documentation on request. They usually don’t put the information on-line as the target audience is small, highly specialized, and usually is already well aware of the benefits.

I agree there is a lot of misleading and confusing consumer information. I find the Consumer Report taxicab test particularly flawed as most taxicabs are left running their entire shift, so they see relatively few cold startup wear issues compared to the average city dweller.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Feb 14 2007, 10:30 AM) [snapback]390136[/snapback]</div>

“Statistically Significant.†An entire branch of mathematics is devoted to that very topic. If one applies empirical results from FMECA (Failure Mode Effect Criticality Analysis) and DMECA (Damage Mode Effect Criticality Analysis) – which one obtains from very expensive actual machine tear-down – to used oil analysis results, the correlation is “strong†to the point of rendering most machine destructive tear-down testing obsolete.

To answer your question of the impact on fuel economy and motor life, based on MY experience of almost 25 years in industrial process control, AND on the urgent tone of the testing lab I used, the following was determined. There would have been no immediate impact on fuel economy, but as the motor wear increased there would have been more blowby and fuel economy would have decreased.

Motor life would have been impacted 40-50%. One thing to keep in mind with used oil analysis is that the numbers are not linear, but can approximate logarithmic scales. That is, small changes in wear numbers can indicate *large* increases in wear, and a sudden spike in one or two values can be alarming. The testing lab thought it was alarming enough to call me at work and interrupt a meeting.

Also keeping in mind that as a motor wears, it usually isn’t linear either. That is, all wear is destructive, and it is also cumulative. Once there is enough wear, a sort of cascade-failure mode starts and wear rapidly increases, while performance rapidly decreases.

When contrasting fuel economy of “regular†oils to synthetic oils, keep in mind a dirty little secret of the API world: to meet the fuel economy claims, a conventional oil is DESIGNED to shear down. As long as oil change intervals are kept short, say 5,000 miles or less, there should be minimal impact on engine life.

So why not use a synthetic that is stable AND thin? For example, a 0W-20. Both Ford and Honda first started to use xW-20 motor oils for fleet-average fuel economy benefits, the increase in engine life was theoretically predicted and then empirically determined. The difference is still minor, even in extreme cold around 8-10%, but it is an improvement.

At the other extreme, run an extremely thick conventional oil, like a 20W-50, and there really are no benefits. At the very least fuel economy will really suffer, and even engine wear could be much higher, especially cold starts.

Your comment “not everyone's regular oil has been contaminated†(sic) is very interesting. How do you know this to be true? Have you performed virgin oil analysis to verify this? Have you accepted in FAITH – like I was foolish enough to do so – the dealer or the oil change place would have meticulously clean equipment and INDUSTRY ACCEPTED practices for bulk oil storage and distribution?

See, that’s the problem when you put blinders on, believe in “faith,†and ignore facts. You start to assume. It has been my experience that when you assume you make an nice person/u/me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Feb 14 2007, 10:30 AM) [snapback]390136[/snapback]</div>

“Changing oil regularly.†How have you calculated the optimal change interval? Every 6 months or 5,000 miles? Every 3 months or 3,000 miles? Every 12 months or 10,000 miles?

That would depend on the quality of oil you use, the operating conditions, and your concern – or lack thereof – of the impact of used oils and filters entering the environment, as the used oil recycling program is far from perfect.

Without routine used oil analysis, and a virgin oil analysis of the same lot of oil you intend to use, you would have to guess. Consider how Toyota got burned by the sludge issue, but rather than use a better motor oil, they instead lowered the interval to 5,000 miles.

I’m unaware of any other vehicle sold in North America having such a short oil change interval. I find it ironic that a company that purports to be “green,†especially with a flagship “green†product, should do something as contradictory as lower the oil change interval at a time when other makers have much longer and even “on condition†intervals.

“flush with something like a BK product, sludge should not be an issue.†So you are having problems with sludge? I’ve never heard of “BK†but have absolutely zero faith in magic elixirs that promise to make the motor last longer, “tune up†a motor, or “fix†a worn out motor. The EPA has also tested such claims and have determined they are bogus. Remember Slick 50?

Even in the industrial scene, a machine flush is a rare event, and usually only after contamination or catastrophic failure has occurred. The industrial machine flush agents are powerful, proven, and generally dangerous to work with. There is a lot of used and contaminated oil in the process, it has to be changed sometimes every 15 minutes. The stuff sold in an auto parts store, who knows?

One thing to keep in mind with “flushing†any machine: what happens if there really are deposits? A solvent strong enough to totally dissolve sludge and varnish will also break down any conventional – and almost every synthetic – oil. A solvent that really is strong enough to readily dissolve sludge and varnish on contact – I can think of a dozen or so offhand – will also readily attack the “soft†metals in a bearing, especially if they are copper.

A solvent that will dissolve sludge and varnish will also easily attack and destroy seals commonly used in motors, even gaskets can be dissolved. And even if you’re lucky and the seals/bearings/gaskets are not harmed by this magic elixir, what happens if some sludge or varnish is suspended?

Does it plug up the oil gallery, perhaps cause a bearing to run dry and wipe? Perhaps the stuff knocked loose will plug the oil pickup screen. Even if no immediate damage is done, this “flushing†process will only add to the waste oil stream.

It’s important to use a motor oil that will minimize or even eliminate deposits from forming during normal operation. The best way to do so with conventional oils is with frequent oil changes. How frequently can only be determined by used oil analysis.

If you can expect severe operating conditions, such at -30 to -40 in Winnipeg, a synthetic is almost mandatory. I know of no conventional motor oil that has less than 600 Poise MRV values at -40.

 

Jayman, maybe by asking for "hard evidence" the doubters mean to say that they want you to go to their house, drive their car around for a few years with dino oil, meanwhile doing regular UOAs, then switch to synthetic, drive for a few years while doing UOAs and then hand them the results of all that testing... today.

Because obviously it doesn't mean anything to them unless you're showing them the numbers from their exact engine.

Sarcasm aside though, you've provided a great deal of invaluable insight in this thread, and even made me feel good about a slightly more faith-based switch to Mobil 1 on my first oil change in my Prius.

 

Synthetic oil is indeed superior.

Your assumption that oil is oil and bonding is bonding is inaccurate.

Numerous studies and tests have been performed to prove this.

 

My markup is hosed and I don't want to go find the typo, bear with me.

I don't doubt your oil analysis at all.

That's the ironic thing, it wouldn't have to be complicated or expensive. The cost of running two engines in a shop. The goal is to see the effects on the engine (lifetime and gas mileage) not the effects on the oil tests. Is there a chart that correlates oil tests to engine life for identical engines and regular vs synthetic?
Is it possible that the differences between the two are small enough that even choosing the "better" of the two would be moot? If the differences are dramatic, shouldn't the evidence be dramatic?

Interesting, and strange, but alright.

I guess expensive is relative. I use statistical analysis everyday so if you can point to trends within one sigma, that's good enough for me. I have to come up with absolute proof of data quality and correlation on a regular basis, so having direct proof (i.e. not an inference from something like an oil test) be so elusive is strange to me. Maybe the ultimate answer is "there is no direct proof because the industry finds it too expensive" and/or "people are buying it already, why does there need to be proof?" are adequate.

Why are they designed that way, to increase sales volume?

It's simply highly unlikely that ALL regular motor oil is contaminated. Do you not agree?

If I'm guilty of anything, it's avoiding assumptions. I have absolutely no faith at all that synthetic is better than regular because I've never seen the simplest of evidence to support it. There is immeasurable anecdotal support, lots of opinion and inferential evidence, but nothing direct. Again, how hard is it to put two engines side by side and run them until they fail? I used to work in industry, and we'd line up rows of $10,000 products to see how long they lasted under stress testing. There's no other way to determine what designs were most effective at improving product life. If I change my oil at the manufacturer's recommended interval, that's regularly to me.

I agree. I'm certainly not in love with Toyota.

It's not supposed to make anything last longer or tune an engine, it's supposed to dissolve deposits. Not complex. I have no problems with sludge, presumably because I flush the engine periodically. I don't want to have the problem. Not sure why you'd start imagining anything is "magic", BK44 is just a mix of lighter aromatics which dissolve sludge. Add ten minutes before oil change and thickened deposits go into solution with the rest of the oil to be changed. I've worked on enough engines to appreciate, if nothing else, working on clean parts.

The ingredients are listed to some extent on the can.
The only reason I started using BK was because a friend of mine ran on a drag racing and funny car circuit in the midwest and he found that their oil treatment dissolved the sludge best.

As far as I know, it contains medium weight VOCs, and is acid neutral. Not a risk to metals. They've been in business for at least 20 years, which I don't think would be possible if their products ate bearings.

I'll tell you the source of my skepticism on synthetic. I took a head in for a valve job a number of years ago, and asked the owner of the shop what his opinions were of synthetic. He indicated that the majority of the valve jobs and guide replacements he performed were from engines that were running synthetic, and he'd never touch the stuff. He didn't know why that was true (I don't either) but that's pretty interesting isn't it?

Of course there's a lot of information missing there, like did all of the owners of ruined heads run too long between oil changes? Did they think their engine could rev higher than spec with this new super-oil? Who knows. That has left me jaded on synthetic, and while you present a good argument with oil testing, anything that is true, can be proven, so I'm still watching for a side-by-side test. To add to that, the most common kind of response I get when looking for evidence is stuff like

"Synthetic oil is indeed superior.
Your assumption that oil is oil and bonding is bonding is inaccurate.
Numerous studies and tests have been performed to prove this."

Oh ok, well nevermind.

It's a lot like

"my dad can beat up your dad!"
"cannot!"
"can so!"

ok. Everyone's happy. People who like it, like it. Good. That's all that matters. I'm not out to change anyone's mind, just looking for evidence for myself.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jendbbay @ Feb 14 2007, 04:49 PM) [snapback]390453[/snapback]</div>

I'm not the 20W-50 user who had the dramatic fuel economy loss -- well actually, it does look like I am getting worse fuel economy, and we have switched to 20W-50, but that's not exactly what I had posted about.

Your answers raised more questions:

Motivated by what was said to be the near loss of our Accord LX 4 cylinder, 1998 engine due to failure to change oil, I want to make the best decisions for the long-term for both of my cars. My older car, had been maintained regularly, though the oil changes have not been spot on. We might get it in there after six thousand miles, worst case, but usually make it in at 4 or 5 thousand miles. The other things such as timing belt, and all normal maintenance, and various problems have all been attended to by a so-called first-rate independent shop. Ultimately, we realized that this first-rate shop wasn't that at least not any more. For a while, we worked with a mobil mechanic, who claimed that the oil was hideously mucked up and nearly gone. We were shocked, as we had receipts showing maintenace within six months, and very little use of the car during that six months, due to a layoff. This, was another strike against the previous shop. Also, I bet they have some big drum of oil, such as you mention the dealerships use. There's nothing to prevent an independent from taking the same types of cost saving measures as the dealership. I never knew about this practice before, or I would have always brought in my own oil.

So, to save our engine, the mobil mechanic recommended draining the oil, pouring in some sort of gunk and running the car for 10 minutes or so, draining that out, and then putting in 20w50 oil. This he did several times -- maybe three -- over the next two months. He insisted that we change the oil every 1000 miles for a while, which we did, each time getting this special flushing job too. Finally, something else failed on the car, and the mobil mechanic proved to be unreliable and dishonest, when attempting to fix that. So we had to go in search of a new independent shop. I don't do dealerships, so I interviewed about 5 independents and picked the one I liked the best. I had the car towed to him so that he could finish the job involving the clutch master and slave cylinder that the mobil mechanic had left incomplete for a month.

Sorry for all that history, but here are my resulting questions.

You say that the recommendation -- which I have been following by the way -- of flushing the engine with this junk is not a good one, nor is the use of 20w50 motor oil, which we have also been following. Both of these mechanics seemed to endorse 20w50 motor oil, due to the fact that the engine has 145,000 miles on it. I checked my oil just before writing this, and after driving it 2,000 miles since the last change, it has lost 2/3rd of a quart. The oil does not look particularly icky or murky on the dip stick.

You previously told me that the decision to switch to 20w50 was silly or words to that effect. Please elaborate for the complete idiot about this. Also, most importantly, if I have used such oil for a year, is it a bad idea to change back to 5w20 at this point? We have resumed a more normal oil change schedule of once per 3k, we aren't flushing with the gunk, and we still use 20w50 oil. We want to know what to do at this point. Should I add more 20w50 oil to bring the oil level back up, and then wait until the scheduled oil change to switch back to regular 20w50 oil? Or, are we stuck using 20w50 forever now. Is a loss of 2/3 of a quart over 2k of driving an indication of a nearly destroyed engine?

Now for the Prius. Having bought what is to us an extraordinarily expensive car, we want to be sure we do right by it. I was attracted to the notion of using Synthetic oil in it because of the belief that one can go longer between oil changes. If we end up letting an oil change slide until 6 or 7 thousand miles, rather than doing it right on the dot of 5k, it seems like there will be no harm if we use synthetic.

So, on the 5k oil change, I brought in my own synthetic, Mobil 1 Extended, and at the weight specified in the owner's manual. I can't recall what that was now, but I know that it was not what you recommend. I did not want to put in what you recommend, merely due to fear of warranty issues.

So, now that I have used extended in the prius, am I obligated to alwasy use extended? Is there any problem with Mobile 1 extended? Moreover, when I become convinced that your recommended 0w 30 (I believe that's what you recommend for the Prius) is better than what Toyota recommends, can I switch to that different weight after the 36k period is over? Over the long haul, we will likely maintain the Prius at 7500 to 10,000 iintervals betrween oil changes. This will make it far easier to get the oil changes done. We have no problem purchasing the premium oil and taking it in to whomever does the change -- unfortunately that is the Toyota Service Department at this time.

 

Jayman,
Excellent input on all your points.
I drive 1k miles/week and have not seen any difference in MEASURABLE mileage between dino or Mobil-1 oils.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tochatihu @ Feb 13 2007, 08:31 AM) [snapback]389488[/snapback]</div>

I'd be for that. I just sent my first sample off for testing at the beginning of the week. The car has a little over 40k miles on it now. The sample only has about 1000 miles on it, and I'll be testing again just before the oil change by my dealer. The first sample was from an Express Lube that uses Pennzoil. They asked about using synthetic, but I told them no.

I'll again test the new oil from the dealer and again after about 5000 miles.
I wouldn't mind putting up my results (although the first will probably be a spreadsheet, it won't be in Excel format, as I'm getting the results mailed to me). After than, maybe they'll email me the results.

I wouldn't mind experienced "testers", like Jayman, providing comments.

Dave M.