True costs of gasoline

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by cyclopathic, Aug 8, 2011.

  1. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    This has been brought up in CAFE thread.

    Since some people do not feel that "gas guzzlers" are unfunded mandate.. keep in mind this was published when gas was $1.02, well before Iraq war. Still, Wth $15/gal???

    True Cost of Gasoline artificial subsidies

     
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  2. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Cyclo - thanks I will take a look. If DOE had a number/methodology, it would have some credibility with me. In my experience, the *true* cost assessment, is something an organization needs to look at to make sure off-mission activities (eg; outside rentals) are under control and paying full cost for their impact on the facilities.
     
  3. priuscritter

    priuscritter I am the Stig.

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    I find this whole argument bogus. the cost of gas is what it costs to get it out of the ground and to my gas tank. taxes are something we created. if we are able to lower the tax rates then so be it. that has nothing to do with what it costs somebody to pull oil out of the ground and refine it into gas.

    Let's keep this simple. If we taxed oil companies at where you think they should be taxed, and it caused a gallon of gas to jump to $10 a gallon, how much of that $10 does everyone think should be taxes?
     
  4. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    Those are some of the direct costs, but what we pay at the pump bears little relation to the real cost. There are many other costs involved, including tax subsidies and environmental subsidies such as pollution. All of theses costs are perfectly real and borne by everyone, but for the economic model to function properly, the true, full cost of an item should be reflected in the price. Gasoline is a prime example of a commodity whose cost far exceeds its price.

    If you're interested in a bit of education, as opposed to expressing your ignorance by calling the argument 'bogus', a simple internet search for 'true cost of gasoline' will reveal many interesting links. Brushing up on economic theory, including the differences between 'price' and 'cost', and concepts such as 'externality', will also increase your understanding.
     
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  5. priuscritter

    priuscritter I am the Stig.

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    tax subsidies are not costs. it may be considered a cost by a text book definition, but it's not a cost.

    if i gave you $20 last month, but this month i only give you $10, did it cost you anything? no. you may have to rearrange your budget, but it didn't cost you anything. you received $10 in free money, and the only reason you have that money is because i gave it to you.
     
  6. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    Oil companies get $4 billion dollars in Federal tax subsidies every year, but it is not a cost to the taxpayers? Really?
     
  7. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    If one company or person gets to pay less tax because of some special rule that applies only to it, every other company and person has to pay more tax to make up the difference. That's cash money. Out of your pocket and mine. That's a cost.
     
  8. priuscritter

    priuscritter I am the Stig.

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    no, it's not a cost to the taxpayers. the government receiving less money is not always a cost to the taxpayer. if the oil companies had to pay that 4 billion, then we would be paying for it at the pump.

    do you really think that $4 billion would be coming back to us as taxpayers if the government collected it from the oil companies? of course not. it would go to some people (those the gov't proclaim should get it). at least this way, those of us who use oil by driving are paying less.

    and by the way, $4 billion comes out to exactly .0285% of the current 14 trillion dollar debt. i don't think that's really gonna do much.
     
  9. priuscritter

    priuscritter I am the Stig.

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    so by that logic, you don't think we'd be paying that $4 bil out of our pocket at the gas pump if those subsidies weren't there?

    here's how you stop that concept that "everyone else has to pay more to make up the difference" = spend less. then they could collect less, and we could pay less.
     
  10. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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  11. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    correct sir. It is not cost it is a f*@#ing miracle! :rockon:

    to other posters: let him be PC is in denial stage, he needs time.

    The idea of $15/gal demolishes foundation for many castles in the air (and his head) he had nurtured or gotten brainwashed into. It is not easy do not expect him to take it well.
     
  12. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Comon lets face it $15/gal *true* cost, is a tactic to argue in favor of alternate energy. True cost calcs are subjective, and the concept is you pick some "thing" you want to convince people is a bad, and you make up some hidden costs why the thing is worse than people think. But I am not going there because I do not even agree with first assumption, that there is some technology we need to put on the dunce seat. If you want to compare life cycle analysis of varioius options, difficult calc., but that's fair if done properly.

    Of course, I am worried about running out of oil (long term), and I am worried about clean air. I believe conservation is extremely important and SUV's are best used as a 2nd vehicle when you need it.

    Full disclosure- my *other* car is not a Prius, but it does not get many miles put on it either.
     
  13. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    question is how much of those hidden costs are gasoline related and how much of them are transportation related? for example if you were to replace oil with coal or CNG, which ones would be the same?

    The truth is while the $14/gal premium looks overly high (there some references in publication, you are more then welcome to investigate), there is no doubt that $3.75 at gas pump is subsidized. And in my mind it is not about alternative technology, oil burners are fine, but it is about proving the point that gas guzzlers are subsidized by taxpayers and are indeed unfunded mandate.
     
  14. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    How does one calculate the value of sea life in the Gulf of Mexico? How about fish in the Yellowstone River in MT? Prince William Sound? A Caribou on the north slope?

    PC's assertion that the "cost " of gasoline at the pump is it's true cost, highlights the height of either naivete, ignorance, or adherence to dogma, or a combination of all three. In any case,, he is just plane WRONG!

    Icarus
     
  15. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    i am sorry but add up the gas bill anyway you want, it still is a detriment to this country's bottom line. as for me? i cant even afford the interest on the money we have to borrow to buy the stuff!
     
  16. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Well I agree I certainly resent subsidizing others expenses. For example, New Jersey has sky-high taxes, but the *smart* thing about that is, it is Schedule A tax deductible, in other words, other people have to pay some of it. At least I think so, is my math correct? I got around this by living in NJ 25 years ...thanks for helping!! <just kidding>. There are lots of things like this.
     
  17. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    True.

    Also, many opponents of alternative vehicles talk as if they are subsidized, but gassers are not.

    Guess what? Gassers are subsidized.
     
  18. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    Important points which I agree with, but just like religion, when politicians come out and say things like we don't need the EPA and promised to shut it down if elected, vulnerable people are likely to believe them even after the recent 50,000 gallons of oil in the yellowstone river.
     
  19. oldasdust

    oldasdust Member

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    Who runs the world? Oil companies. Who puts people in power and lines their pockets with campaign money/lobby money or what ever you want to call it $$. Oil companies. Who can set prices ? Oil companies. Who does not pay their fair share of taxes and has profits out of wack with others industries ? Oil companies. True cost of anything can be and is a manipulation of numbers , data and fuzzy math. Where i come from just called B.S....
     
  20. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ...its seems like no middle ground, again
     
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