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Two-Hundred Seventy Six mile highway trip with flats and hills: results

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Fuel Economy' started by ystasino, May 25, 2011.

  1. ystasino

    ystasino Active Member

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    Well I don't mean to flood the forum with posts, but this is quite different than my previous thread which showed a short trip with ideal pulse and WS opportunities and resulted in 72.2 scangauge mpg (my guess is that equals ~70 MFD mpg) over 30 miles.

    This trip includes the departure and return drive on I95 and the New Jersey Turnpike from zip codes 21231 to 08831. The results reported here include highway mileage only (no slowing down for ramps or highway approaches) plus slowing down for four tolls and being impeded by a bizarrely behaving grey Prius driver. Blue envy? Traffic was not a problem.

    Here are the graphs and data showing elevation and speed

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This portion of the trip yielded 60.6 MFD mpg. Interestingly, miles 0-68 (significant hills) showed 62.0 MFD mpg meaning that the second half of the drive yielded ~59.4 mpg. The return trip showed yielded 61.8 mpg according to the MFD with an average speed of 60.63.

    This discrepancy (60.6 mpg to NJ and 61.8 mpg return) suggests that further improvements are possible. Turning A/C off could also help a bit. I'm also wondering what the cruise control results would be :) High-speed tolls, instead of stop and go tolls at miles 32 and 56, see blue line dip, would also help.

    Anyhow these efficiency numbers were obtained using an adopted protocol from Hobbit's sweet spot refinement article and are summarized below:

    Slight uphill accelerate so that your iMPG = MPH (12.0 kW)
    Moderate uphill accelerate so that your iMPG = 0.8xMPH (15.0 kW)
    Significant uphill iMPG as close to 0.8MPH as possible
    Moderate downhill iMPG =1.3 or 1.5xMPH (8.0-9.0 kW)
    Significant downhill use Warp stealth also known as yellow arrow condition, by feathering the gas pedal (0. 0 kW)

    Tire pressure was 44 psi, but the stock tires are a bit worn from 50 months of usage.

    EDIT: The title can be slightly misleading I guess, there were no "flats" just ~400 ft hills in the first half of the trip and ~50 ft hills in the second half of the trip. Let's keep that in mind before we compare this method to SHM which would be inferior in this terrain and only applies to really FLAT roads.

    Also note that as measurements IGN numbers reflect a broad range of engine output. Using kW is more refined and useful for all purposes.
     
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  2. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I used similar strategy when I drove from NY to Boston. I got 60 MPG also. I did not record the average speed but it was mostly highway (after getting out of NYC). That was with the stock Integrity tires as well.
     
  3. mikewithaprius

    mikewithaprius New Member

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    Hey, looks nice...I see the max and average speeds - would you say you were constantly speeding and slowing with this technique, or did you aim for the same speed pretty much, and it would just fluctuate "naturally"?
     
  4. ystasino

    ystasino Active Member

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    Excellent question:

    At the times I suspected WS would be in play (PART A of the trip) I would accelerate intently to get the most of WS, during which the car is slowly slowing down. The best example of this is around mile 40 when I reached 74.57 mph, which I would obviously did not interrupt with the brake pedal :) I used 20 kWs occasionally so that I wouldn't lose momentum below 55 mph, however I would not overpower the terrain.

    After MD (mile ~55) which interestingly is where the big hills end (the spike at mile 64 is a bridge) I initially (PART 2A: miles 68 to 100) tried to P&G as if I was on the bigger hills and saw the mpg decrease.

    After mile 100 (PART 2B ) I aimed to keep the speeds around 62 +/- 3 or 4 mph.

    The conclusion is the following: When I suspected prolonged downhills (80+ ft elevation) and expected that I could use WS, pulsing and WS seemed superior. On smaller hills a more refined version of the original SHM approach seemed to work better.


    Thanks for the question, it helped me formulate some important observations. Any ideas?
     
  5. mikewithaprius

    mikewithaprius New Member

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    Nope! Sounds good. Sounds like drive with the terrain for WS (top speed at crest of hill).
     
  6. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    SHM worked for me on odd undulating highway that runs across the city here. I'll try it on the drive home this summer (any tips for higher highway speeds? The speed limit would be 70mph as opposed to 50mph on the test run that I did within the city).

    Also, so for mountainous terrain, what would be the take away message? I'll be crossing the Rockies with decent elevation changes. It's also a major highway so it will be busy in the summer.
     
  7. ystasino

    ystasino Active Member

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    I've written more than a takeaway message below, if you want tfast forward to it go to the paragraphs beginning with bold words :)

    Here's the SHM paradigm:

    So I have an issue with SHM as a method and IGN as a reading. First of IGN 18 (the pulse in SHM) and 14 (the shorter prolonged pulse) relate to a wide output of kW that also varies from speed. Also as the refresh rate of SG II is poor the gauge appears to sometimes give erroneous readings for example dropping IGN while you are actually accelerating. Using kW at highway speed allows you to keep looking at one precise parameter. Second even in minor hills holding a steady IGN 14 or even 15 (or even a steady kW output for that matter) means a significant loss of momentum because of the terrain. Try IGN 14 on 70 mph road on a hill and you'll end up at 55 mph in no time. SHM was formulated for "parkway" speeds on flats.

    And here's what I use:

    Even on minor hills such as those shown in the graph above, past the 68 mile midway point, I believe we need to adopt Hobbit's method of pulsing and gliding with ICE gently on or at steeper downhills using WS.

    First, let's agree that kW output, if nothing else, is more precise than IGN in measuring engine output.

    Now, let's set a ceiling and a floor for you highest (70 mph) and lowest (60 mph) speed.

    The critical part of this technique lies on taking advantage of the downhill portions of hilly terrain.

    A ) Assumption: The uphill and downhill portions are protracted or steep. Approach: Enter the uphill at 70 mph. Use 15.0 kW, or more, to reach the crest of the hill at your 60 mph. WS downhill gaining some speed.

    B ) Assumption: The uphill and downhill portions are intermediate or small so that WS is not possible. Approach: Reach 65 mph as smoothly as possible. Negotiate the uphill at around 12 kW so that you reach the crest of the hill at 60 mph. ICE-ON glide downhill by adjusting the ICE output to 8.0-9.0 kW (which roughly is IGN 14) until you reach your floor speed limit (60 mph) when you start accelerating again.

    Notes:

    Tracking your average speed with a cell phone application, as the one shown above is important, to help you set goals and also really informative of your real average speed not a hypothetical one you think you have. If I didn't have that app I would swear my average speed would be more like 64 mph (it was ~61)

    In terms of going uphill I'm at a slight disagreement with Hobbit's write-up which essentially suggests that there is not much of an efficiency fall-off even at very high kW (20+).

    For ICE operation I use the following guide:

    Slight uphill accelerate so that your iMPG = MPH (12.0 kW)
    Moderate uphill accelerate so that your iMPG = 0.8xMPH (15.0 kW)
    Significant uphill iMPG as close to 0.8MPH as possible
    Moderate downhill iMPG =1.3 or 1.5xMPH (8.0-9.0 kW)
    Significant downhill use Warp stealth also known as yellow arrow condition, by feathering the gas pedal (0. 0 kW). kW were calculated using Hobbit's SG xgauge.

    You can see Hobbit's original approach at http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/sweet/refl.html

    You can program you scangauge to read kW using by reaching the xgauge icon and then typing in

    00 / 4000 8000 0000 / 0000 / 000A 001F 0000 / kw

    when asked for TXD / RXF / RXD / MTH / NAM

    respectively. These are his calculations and work and I'm only reproducing it here for a more complete picture.
     
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  8. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Sure. I don't have a scangauge so I really don't care if it's kW or IGN, as long as there's a measure that I can use. I'm going by the HSI since I've found it fairly useful and most members can use it here.

    The descents can be quite steep such that WS will not be necessary (if anything, I need to WS up the hill so that the battery can drained to recover it on the downhills). On the 70mph "flat" highway, it's mostly straight (seriously) with a elevation gain of 1,300ft over 200 miles.
     
  9. ystasino

    ystasino Active Member

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    Hmm, I have no experience in mountainous terrain, Gen III display, Gen III efficiency and I don't know if you are talking about a single mountaintop or many. Does it display instant MPG?

    However even if you're not tracking anything with scangauge, my guess is that the iMPG/MPH ratio could be applicable here. I would try and keep a constant iMPG/IMPH ratio uphill, the lowest you can get away with for your target speed.

    Another question would have to do with getting rid of the excess charge accumulating while climbing, is there a way to stop for 5 minutes and blast the A/C? Or stop push the emergency brake (foot brake in the Gen II) and feather the gas pedal or will that tax the drivetrain?
     
  10. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Yes it displays instant MPG but in the form of a bar/meter rather than a number like it is in the Gen 2. I don't intend to wear out the e-brake. The Gen 3 is better at battery management. I would think that a Gen 2 would use up some battery given that the ICE isn't as powerful but with the Gen 3, I remember cresting with 6 bars which is impressive. I could try going slower as to use less ICE power and perhaps get to a point where the car would draw battery power.

    Some of the grades are long and steep enough that even with an empty battery (say 2 bars), it'll be full a quarter way down the hill. However, that quarter is still better than the 1/8th if it was at 6 bars.
     
  11. mikewithaprius

    mikewithaprius New Member

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    On real mountain slopes (not our petty East Coast hills :-D) the battery will be used instead of charged, so SOC goes lower on way up, and then get it back on the way down.

    You could definitely blast the A/C if you've got too much energy on your hands. If we ever see a bunch of people wrapped up in winter coats in the dead of summer heading down a mountain hill with the subwoofer pumping, we'll know what they're up to.
     
  12. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    hahaha. But as stated, I believe the Gen 2 would drain the battery in the same scenario (though we have yet to take the '05 over the same mountains). I had it drain going up a local hill that has quite an elevation gain (it usually is one of the few places that snows when everyone else is getting rain). Some of the highways are 1 lane and others are 3 lanes. i could probably get away with EV mode in the 3-laned ones (I've done 58mph in that 70mph zone in my smart since that was about as fast as it would go with 2 people and trunk full of luggage up that incline)
     
  13. mikewithaprius

    mikewithaprius New Member

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    You know, I'm scared to see the RPMs up these mountainous hills...for me I sometimes have about 2400-2500 RPM for steep bridges, and one very steep hill I'm at 2600-2700 RPM sometimes. All the while the battery usually gets a little charge, rather than assisting the whole way. Will be interesting to see if I do that road trip at what point does the battery just goes "aw, screw it" and starts helping out.
     
  14. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    lol. I don't know the geography of your area but a local ski hill here would do the trick too, just to give you an idea. I've had the Gen 2 Prius at full throttle before... 4 people plus luggage trying to merge to a 60mph highway from a near standstill (it was a 180° degree turn to the onramp). It took a while ;)
     
  15. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    What a change HSD makes to one's expectations. My old nonhybrid must turn 2700 RPM all the time just to go 60 mph on the flats. DW's car turns 3100 RPM at the same speed.