Tyranny of the Christian Right (AlterNet)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ May 30 2006, 01:08 PM) [snapback]262801[/snapback]</div>

Yes I agree all people deserve respect. I don't agree that sin does. Just like the Dutch pedophiles who want their own political party. Do you feel the same about them? I happen to have friends who are gay. I don't agree with or condone their lifestyle anymore than a friend of mine who is an alcoholic. I consider them to both be sins. But I still treat them with respect.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 01:09 PM) [snapback]262802[/snapback]</div>

Actually that came off wrong. I wasn't comparing you to the Dutch peodophiles, but to the idea of people creating their own standards. Sorry if you took it as offensive.

So how do you know when you are doing wrong if no one tells you? Is it a matter of feeling?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 01:15 PM) [snapback]262804[/snapback]</div>

Actually, yes, it is a feeling.

Here's an example.... Do you 'feel' it's wrong to break into someone's house? Do you 'feel' it's wrong to kill someone? Do you 'feel' it's wrong to cheat? Personally, I know it's wrong to do so, and I don't need to check a book. If you have to check your bible, I recommend isolation and seclusion for you!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 01:17 PM) [snapback]262812[/snapback]</div>

Isolation and seclusion is a pretty severe way to handle someone you don't agree with. Does these mean you are classified as being intolerate of Christians?

What about having an affair? Is that wrong? It may feel good or justified or right, but in "my book" it isn't.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 01:20 PM) [snapback]262814[/snapback]</div>

I think that it's wrong... obviously it's lying, and causing hurt to people. Again, I don't need a book to 'feel' this.

I meant you should perhaps be isolated because you're potentially dangerous. IE, if you see someone who's having a seizure in an ATM booth, and you don't have your bible, how would you know not to rob them? How would you know to call for help? Or do you carry it with you always and have these situations cross referenced?

Here's another example: I've lied. Yes, I've told my 7 year old cousin that there was, in fact, a santa claus because I didn't want to spoil his christmas and didn't want to ruin all the trouble his mother and father had gone to with setting up the holiday stuff. I know the bible does specfically state that lying is a sin, so does this mean I'm going to turn into a tax cheat? Or am going to start killing people and denying it?

How about the part of the bible where it states I can own slaves, as long as they're not from my state. Does that mean slaves from West Virginia are OK? Or does state mean nation? I also know the bible states that Hebrew slaves are only allowed to serve for six years, but does that apply to foriegn hebrew slaves? I'm so confused? How do you pick and choose the 'right' parts? Or is it just a 'feeling' after all?

And why didn't you answer my question about Koresh and yourself? You're both christians, right? Or about inclusion for all religions? Or do you not want to answer those?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ May 30 2006, 01:28 PM) [snapback]262824[/snapback]</div>

If it is generally accepted, why do other countries not have such laws or why were the laws needed in the first place?

Sin is sin. Giving it an excuse such as a medical reason doesn't stop it from being wrong. Eventually all sins will have medical reasons and therefore be excusable. I can murder if I claim temporary insanity. Drug and alcohol addiction don't come from abusing them, it is a medical condition. Sexual perversion is something we should either accept or treat. I prefer a standard that doesn't change with the tide.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 01:39 PM) [snapback]262830[/snapback]</div>

Yes, damn it! We need standards that don't change. I like this one, from Exodus 21: When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Personally, I'm repulsed by the idea of slavery, let alone beating slaves. But if it's in the bible, I guess the Christians are OK with it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 01:29 PM) [snapback]262826[/snapback]</div>

Oh I understand now. You don't know what a Christian is. That is a common mistake today especially since the term is used so loosely. A Christian is someone who has trusted in Jesus Christ to forgive and cleanse his sins. If someone is truely a Christian they will be concerned about their fellow man and serve God as much as is possible while here in this fallen world. A Christian is not someone who does things contrary to the Word of God and teaches others to do them.

Being born in a particular country, going to a particular church, claiming to be something, doesn't make you a Christian. Look at their fruit to see what tree they are.


You have to understand the way a "true" Christian thinks:

Let's say I'm driving down the road and see a bridge ahead that doesn't look right. The supports seem to be crumbling. I pull over and walk around to where I can see better and sure enough a huge log has come down river and severely damaged the bridge. What shall I do? I see other cars heading my way. Should I warn them that the direction they are heading could lead to disaster or should I say, they will think I am strange and an alarmist. The bridge might be able to support their weight. Of course I will tell them and let them make their own decision.

This is what the Christian is doing. Telling others about the disaster they believe is ahead of them.

As far as other religions, I'm not sure what you mean. True Christianity is not a religion. Religion is man's way of trying to get to heaven and atone for his sins. Christ has already done this, so Christianity is a way of life, not a religion. From Christianity many religions have been created by non Christians who are trying to add to what Christ has done because it makes them feel better to feel like they are doing something to save themselves. Religion is man's fig leaf. Just as Adam and Eve tried to cover their own sin with fig leaves. Religion is man's way to cover his sin.

If I miss a comment you want me to reply to please remind me as this nice person did. I'm trying to read them as fast as I can between conference calls.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 01:53 PM) [snapback]262835[/snapback]</div>

Ah, I get it. You don't know what a decent human being is. I'd warn people about the bridge without giving a thought about the fact that they could think I'm 'strange or alarmist'. Again, I don't need a book or a religion to make me a good person. And you shouldn't either.

And, again, what about the slavery in the bible? Isn't that your holy book? How do you choose what to believe or not to believe from your holy book?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 01:43 PM) [snapback]262832[/snapback]</div>

You seem to be getting upset. You are asking for my opinion, right?

The Bible is full of many things including history. The Bible or any Christian never says it is right to do everything you read in the Bible. Do you think Christians will say it is right to Crucify Christ because it was done in the Bible? I'm glad you are reading it. You need to understand the context of what you are reading. Slavery was a very important part of our history. The Bible addresses those that do have slaves and how you should treat slaves. Slavery, right or wrong, was an accepted way of doing things in many cultures. Some people went into slavery voluntarily to pay off debts, others were compelled into it.

Understand that I don't claim to be an expert on every passage of Scripture, but I will be happy to offer my opinion. If you choose to disagree with it, don't be offended.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 02:07 PM) [snapback]262846[/snapback]</div>

But you would agree that the slavery aspect was wrong? Or are you attempting to defend the vile practice? If you think it's wrong, which any decent human should, I ask again: How do you determine which parts of the bible are right and wrong? Is it a feeling? This is the only question I have... I don't care about the background of the bible or the history of, because believe me, given my educational background I probably know more about it than you. I just want that question answered.

 

see, what i don't get is why everyone thinks we have to have written rules given to us, supposedly from someone with much more authority, in order to know we're doing the right thing?

i conduct myself by ethical standards. i found a credit card in the parking lot at target last weekend, and i picked it up and turned right back around to deliver it to the service counter so noone else would take it and have a field day playing credit card fraud. the $2 box of popsicles i went out to get meant very little compared to the major damage the owner of that credit card would experience. a simple comparison, a simple decision, not based on any written rules. just what i felt was right.

i plan on teaching my future children the same way- based on common sense, rational thought, compassion, and ethics. not based on what was going on thousands of years ago.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 02:12 PM) [snapback]262848[/snapback]</div>

All parts of the Bible are correct. I don't have it memorized but I don't know of a Scripture that tells people to get slaves, only how to handle them if you have one. I don't believe in abusing people, slaves or not. I can't say that all slavery is wrong because I don't know how it is used in all cultures. Sometimes it is a voluntary situation to pay off a debt. Since you have a greater knowledge in this area than I, I will not disagree with you. Personally I would not support slavery voluntarily or unvolutarily, but I cannot speak for ever culture or situation. I would rather help the person who has the debt or need than to allow them to get to a position where they would need to become a slave.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 02:27 PM) [snapback]262859[/snapback]</div>

Leviticus 25 - you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

So that's correct then, right? If all parts of the bible are correct, as you just so boldly stated, than I can purchase a male or female slave from foreigners who live among us? Personally, I find that repulsive... but since, to you, "All parts of the bible are correct", you must be okay with it.

And that's the difference between a good human being and a zealot christian. One of us can think and use our moral sense to determine what's right and wrong, and the other thinks that slavery is okay because all parts of the bible are correct.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ May 30 2006, 02:40 PM) [snapback]262866[/snapback]</div>

Homosexuality is also condemned in the New Testament.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 02:29 PM) [snapback]262861[/snapback]</div>

Leviticus 25:47 is referring to someone who sells themselves into slavery. It is referring to how his relatives can buy him back by paying his debt. Can you be more specific as to which verse you are referring? And yes, I am okay with this verse as it applies to the context it is written in. It is explaining the proceedings of the year of Jubilee.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 05:51 PM) [snapback]263008[/snapback]</div>

Personally, I'd be more comfortable if the bible said slavery is wrong.

I particularly like this verse (Exodus 21, btw)...

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. .

So not only can you sell yourself to pay off your debts, you can pay off your children. Hell of a book you're using to teach your children. Hell of a book.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 07:24 PM) [snapback]263048[/snapback]</div>

A young man once received a letter from a lawyer stating that his grandmother had left him an inheritance. To his astonishment, it was $50,000 plus “my Bible and all it contains.â€

The youth was delighted to receive the money. However, he knew what the Bible contained, and because he wasn’t into religion he didn’t bother to open it. Instead, he put it on a high shelf. He gambled the $50,000, and over the next fifty years he lived as a pauper, scraping for every meal. Finally he became so destitute, he had to move in with his relatives. When he cleaned out his room, he reached up to get the dusty old Bible from the shelf. As he took it down, his trembling hands dropped it onto the floor, flinging it open to reveal a $100 bill between every page.

The man had lived as a pauper, simply because of his prejudice. He thought he knew what the Bible “contained.â€

 

i wonder what there is more of on this site: christian or bush bashing.... i guess christian bigotry is totally acceptable these days...

i say heck with it, let's have a throw down once and for all... the christian right on one side of a big field, all opposed on the other, losers convert or die.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 30 2006, 07:49 PM) [snapback]263059[/snapback]</div>

It is quite normal to be afraid of or annoyed with Christians. Afterall if the Christian is correct, the future is not so great for some. However if the Christian is wrong, we will both live 80+ years and very much enjoy our time here and then return to dust.