Featured Unconfirmed Rumor of New Toyota & Tesla Partnership

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by PriusCamper, Apr 1, 2021.

  1. dbstoo

    dbstoo Active Member

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    I'm happy to say that you have been misinformed. I have a 2017 Prime Advanced. A year after I bought it there was an alert on the screen telling me that an update was pending. When the update was finished, it now had hosted the Amazon Alexa app. An older app was deleted.

    Just because I was not sure when the navigation system was last updated, I bought an upgrade. It came on a flash chip and was simple to install. No, it was not free, but then again the major upgrades to the Tesla (FSD, etc) are not free either.

    Tesla does not have a patent lock on OTA updates. They've been doing it for decades on other cellular enabled devices.
     
  2. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Lol... A flash chip that was simple to install and an over the air update that added an Alexa app? If you compare that to the list above of what Tesla has been offering it's like comparing elementary school students to grad school students.
     
    #22 PriusCamper, Apr 8, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
  3. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    So you get automatic free map data updates, free traffic alert updates, free charge location updates including number of plus free, free bug fixes, etc? I don't have a Tesla but I do follow their forums to learn what I'll want in my next car. And the hardware updates to use the next rev of assisted driving are free. Which compares well to the two only at the dealer updates I've had for my Toyota '19 Rav4h.
     
  4. dbstoo

    dbstoo Active Member

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    Yes, I already have free charge locations with my Prius. I get free traffic alerts.

    What I don't get is free bugs. And those free bugs are the reasons that free bug fixes are so critical to the Tesla environment.

    Before retirement, I was a professional programmer as well as a systems designer. I recognize a sloppy programming environment when I see one. Tesla appears to be one.
     
  5. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    If you are happy with the software/firmware then that means Toyota meets the requirements for you.

    Toyota did indeed supply me with buggy software/firmware in my gen III prius, but I bought it in the first model year. It was a PITA to get it updated when they did the bug fixes, since only one guy in my dealership knew how to update the cars, so I had to schedule while he was there, and the first fix took 2.5 hours (no idea why but probably related to having just one guy). Over the air is much better for people like me. There is nothing proprietary about it, but toyota has not implemented it yet. I am happy they fixed the bugs. No car is perfect, its about fixing things when you find out they are wrong.

    Alternatively I got my tesla 3 in the first model year. I'd say the only real buggy software that had to do with driving was the auto windshield wipers. Tesla had saved money by using the cameras instead of a dedicated moisture sensor, and hadn't programmed it right. I had to gasp, manually set my wipers often, then, but they eventually got it right.

    Autopilot is really a beta system where a driver should be watching. The problem here is many reviewers have expectations too high, and some owners do as well. When I first received my car it was really good at adaptive cruise control but only moderately good at autosteering and automated lane changing. I would say poor at self parking, it was fine when it identified the spots but did not as often as it should have.

    Now 2.5 years later it has much improved. It now has great visualization and can even tell bicycles from motorcycles and identify pedestrians around the car. It now is perfect at identifying trafic lights and signs. I trust the autosteer on most city streets and all highways as long as there is not heavy construction. Self parking is much improved. I have not taken the self driving beta as I don't really want the car monitoring me while driving until this gets to a higher level. I think they will get there but have a feeling they will need to upgrade my computer again (free of charge with my purchase for this not ready feature) to get it to really work right.

    New features that they have added that I like - dog mode, camping mode, more situational awareness so I can use the physical controls instead of using voice or the touch scree, spotify, sentry mode, dash cam.

    The firmware also improved that I get more range and acceleration than when it was new. They added preconditioning and are upgrading superchargers so wait time when using is faster. The current models though have better battery cells so even greater range and faster charging. Still my gf gets a little car sick if I use the full acceleration so I keep it in chill mode most of the time, and have not used superchargers since covid.

    I'm not sure why you think the programing is sloppy. Tesla did take longer than they expected, although about what I expected, when they switched from mobileye software to their own. The system looks at 8 outward cameras, radar, and sonar, that is not simple to implement. Self driving beta also use an inward camera to tell if the driver is paying attention. Its not really full self driving, it is driver supervised automated driving.
     
    #25 austingreen, Apr 11, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
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  6. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Thanks for taking the time to sum up in depth the difference between the tired old worn antiquated method of car manufacturing, versus a far more robust new way. The "get off my lawn crowd" on here still thinks this discussion is about brand loyalty rather than how the best operating systems are developed. Toyota is a decade behind in that regard and, for the moment, they still lack the basic infrastructure and resource allocation to catch up.
     
  7. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Yes, and Tesla is at least 3 decades behind in quality manufacturing. I'd rather have good quality and reliability and bad software than good software and bad quality and reliability. Cars are mostly mechanical - they have to actually move and the doors have to actually open and so on. Software is of secondary importance to good mechanical quality.
     
  8. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Behind in quality manufacturing? The amount of wasted time and resources car makers spend addressing quality control concerns from people named Karen is something Tesla has been wise to ignore, especially because their vehicle safety design standards are generally out in front of the rest of other automakers.
     
  9. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    What are you talking about? Tesla is consistently at the bottom of quality and reliability rankings. They have all sorts of problems from fit and finish to using substandard parts and asking their customers to pay for the replacements when they fail. And everything in between.

    jdp-ranking-2020.jpg

    download.jpeg.png
     
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  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    AHEM! My 2019, Std Rng Plus Model 3 is not for sale.

    Only the most recent Std Rng Plus Model 3 is slightly more efficient. I'm waiting on the single rear and front casting and structural battery pack before upgrading.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  11. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    That's okay, I'd rather have a Ford diesel pickup (and I hate Ford, diesels and pickups).

    If I were you, I'd wait for their initial quality and long term reliability to get up to the "average" point. At least. But I guess some people are more tolerant of poorly built cars than I am.
     
  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    • "initial quality" - our car worked fine with no return to service center
    • "reliability" - the car continues to work fine and no return to service
    Many of us got great Tesla cars that continue to work perfectly.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  13. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    You seem well studied in complainers, or Karens as we call them... Meanwhile, when it comes to saving lives, your so called "quality" doesn't say much compared to safety:

    Model 3 achieves the lowest probability of injury of any vehicle ever tested by NHTSA
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Screenshot from 2021-04-12 00-35-21.png
     
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  14. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Changing the subject to avoid talking about the issue is a sure sign of a weak position.
     
  15. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Then you got lucky. Statistically, many don't get so lucky. And I would argue that even a working Model 3 is garbage from day one due to no dash, no hud, horribly rough suspension and the world's dumbest door opening system. In fact the door opening system is so bad that, had I ordered one without knowing about it, I would have refused delivery when it arrived.
     
  16. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    Almost all those complaints mean my 2017 Trim Two is also junk. The only one in your list is has is the dashboard.

    I guess it is time to call a troll a troll.
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    • "no dash" - means fewer parts to break with Prius style, center display.
    • "no hud" - cell phone HUD ("Speedometer") did not improve driving in either Prime nor Model 3. The Prius style, center display works just fine as it did in our old, 2003 Prius.
    • "horribly rough suspension" - handles high speed curves like they are rails especially with tires at max sidewall pressure.
    • "dumbest door opening system" - the Tesla IQ test, the young and young at heart master it easily.
    Source: Tesla Q1 2021 Vehicle Production & Deliveries | Tesla Investor Relations

    upload_2021-4-12_5-26-29.png

    Tesla buyers also vote with their wallets. No fan of Consumer Reports, even they admitted with a back-handed comment:

    Most Satisfying Brands
    With historic reliability concerns but an intensely loyal following, Tesla took the top spot for overall owner satisfaction among the 27 brands mentioned in survey responses.

    BTW, I remember when Consumer Reports had similar reports about the Prius:

    upload_2021-4-12_5-45-33.png
    Flaws in Consumer Reports about the Prius were the first indication of a disconnect from what many of their readers wanted.

    Fortunately, we have choices which is why I traded in our 2017 Prius Prime and got $18,300 off the price of our 2019 Std Rng Plus Model 3. Our Model 3 and the SuperCharger network continues to fully meet our requirements.

    As for a Toyota/Tesla collaboration, it has happened in the past. But for business cultural reasons, I'm pretty sure it will have the same success as a @Lee Jay/@bwilson4web consensus. Regardless, Japanese buyers have a vote: Tesla Sales Surge In Japan After Model 3 Price Reduction

    The Japan Automobile Importers Association reveals 588 Tesla registrations in March 2021, which is 1,236% more than 44 units a year earlier. That's actually not far from other foreign brands like Fiat (739) and Land Rover (689).

    To give you some background, Nissan LEAF sales in March reached 1,603 (up over 20% year-over-year) and averaged less than 800 a month over the past 12-months.

    The main force behind the Tesla's better results is the MIC Model 3, which has become more affordable and is well received by the young generation (including the direct sales model).

    Bob Wilson
     
    #37 bwilson4web, Apr 12, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  18. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Let me get this straight...
    The original thread is about a rumored collaboration between Toyota and Tesla.
    You raise an unrelated post about how you wouldn’t buy a Tesla due to reliability issues.
    Another poster counters your comment with a post about Tesla’s superior score on safety.

    You then accuse said poster of having a weak argument due to changing the topic?

    Are you running short on rocks in that glass house of yours?
     
    #38 Zythryn, Apr 12, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  19. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Probably best not to feed the trolls on this one. Initial quality as JD Powers defines it has nothing to do with reliability, manufacturing skill, or indeed what you or I would define as initial quality.

    The Trouble With J.D. Power's Initial Quality Study - Feature - Car and Driver
    Its fairly remarkable that Lexus went from best - 73 defects in that year to 159 in 2020. Toyota fell all the way to number 20. Did the quality go down so far so fast? Of course not it mainly is measuring I do not like how this tech works in the first 90 days. Indeed there are learning curves on some things. The Chevy sonic scored best in the 2020 survey and this is really an 8 year old design. Cars that have been around a long time seem to score best. Is that how a measure of being ahead in manufacturing. The sonic does not sell very well ;-) Tesla is an askerisk in the survey since it does not want to play. JD powers needs permission to survey owners in 15 states, and tesla hasn't given them it, so no California owners were even asked.

    The model X had reliability problems. Hope these are fixed in the 2021 update. Tesla's first full production year as a car manufacturer was 2013, and since then has had a compound annual growth of 50%. I do not doubt initial quality is lower than other older car companies with car designs that change at a glacial pace. I got my model 3 in the first year of production, and first months of production of the dual motor. I had 2 defects, one in that 90 day period of my drivers door being slightly misaligned. Tesla fixed it, but I had to drive to them. The second problem was more minor, the trim piece between driver's and passenger's door, came loose. By then the mobile mechanics were trained, and they drove to my car and replaced the trim piece. I have high owner satisfaction and tesla ranks on top of that rating.
     
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  20. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    It's a regular-person IQ test - you have to figure out why keeping your eyes on the road is safer than looking inside the cabin.

    And if you are taking high-speed curves that any regular car can't, you're breaking both the law and the law of common sense.

    I was smart enough not to buy a car the requires the window roll down motor and the 12V system to be operating for the door to be able to open without shattering the window.
     
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