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Featured Unlike Toyota, GM to build a US Battery Factory

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by hill, Dec 5, 2019.

  1. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    Go drive a current Rav4h and imagine it with 100 more HP. My current Rav4h has the acceleration of my Porsches. The hybrid costs more than the ICE version and outperforms it. And the plug-in will outperform the simple hybrid with its 300+ HP. Not as fast as a pure EV done right but still a step up worth paying for and cheaper than a Model Y.

    Seems to me Toyota got the SUV/CUV switch right. And they probably have an EV planned for when the plug-in can be out done at a successful selling point that yields a profit. After all, they are testing the technology in China. Just as they tested the Prius in Japan. Probably waiting for supply chain maturity and the next gen battery technology.
     
  2. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    well sure - 50's Porsche accelerations were pretty mediocre. 70s? some were too. Even some early 80s. Move along to mid 80's? My 85 & 89 911 cabs (heavier than hardtops) 2 seconds faster than Ravh. Speaking of 2 seconds - you could give that Ravh a 2 second handicap to a 1st Porsche 918 ..... & then, a 2nd 918 could still take off & get up to 60 MPH .... and even that 2nd 918 will still beat the RAV4h
    So what it means is, it took Toyota nearly 40 years to make a small SUV that could match an older Porsche.

    That's still really great of Toyota. But we knew this - ever since 1996, when our 6cyL Lexus rx400h came out & it could beat the V8 version in both 0-60 and ¼ mile.
    Go Toyo!
    .
     
  3. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    IMO, no they are not. For two reasons.
    First, they had the green car "halo" advantage for the last ~20 years.
    Hybrid (almost) was equated with the Prius brand.
    They allowed a newcomer to the industry to steal that away from them.
    This stumble will cost them. They could have sold a Prius EV in half or less than the quantity Tesla has sold Model 3s in the last year and maintained their green halo.
    Instead they are behind and it will take 5-10 years to regain their reputation, unless they have a surprise announcement within the next year or so.

    Second, is the Supercharger network. When people say that the infrastructure is "not there" yet for widespread EV adoption...this is only true for non-Teslas. There are enough Supercharger locations for most consumers to travel with a Tesla. Of course, as the numbers grow more plugs will need to be added as well as some more out of the way locations. But "most" people can drive to "most" places with today's situation -- but NOT with hydrogen, only in a Tesla.

    Mike (I've really liked my Prius's and still like them -- Model 3 is just better)
     
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  4. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    The situation isn't zero-sum. The market doesn't work on a micro level either. This is a macro-economic change, requiring multiple players. None of the big ones wanted to play along though. GM, Ford, Chrysler, and VW all chose to resist in some manner and did so for 2 decades. Tesla filling in that void provides exactly the type of ally that has been needed. This is why "know your audience" is such a vital part of the equation.

    Many will argue until the cows come home that top-down & bottom-up approaches cannot co-exist. Reality is, they are complimentary. That's why so many online battles are pointless. That's why claims of "behind" are words of rhetoric without substance. What cost is there to taking the time to ensure they are delivering change their dealers will embrace? Rushing to market without a robust, profitable, adaptive set of technology advances is not how attract mainstream buyers.

    In other words, following a belief that not capturing the early-adopter market represents a huge loss in the realm of appealing to ordinary consumers is futile. The "halo" remark confirms a mismatch. Who does RAV4 Prime target?
     
  5. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    While I did have a 1970 914 with its 85 HP. The ones I was speaking of were a 1999 2.5 Boxster and a '01S Boxster 3.2. Both had TIP transmissions because of where I lived and my commute at the time. I'm talking perceived acceleration. Recall the TIP started in second of 5 gears unless you absolutely floored it. And the P-cars didn't have the instant torque of the electric motor. So the perceived acceleration feels the same or better even if the numbers aren't. Which makes it fast enough. Now for someone who has to be the fastest, not so. But they don't buy SUVs.

    For the casual car shopper the test drive experience won't disappoint most and the step up to 300+ HP will be even more impressive. As the article on Innovators Dilemma says, Toyota is marketing the Rav4h as a upgrade and not stressing the MPG. So if it is perceived that way, their strategy is a success. Since they are supply constrained (meaning they can sell more than they can make right now) the strategy must be working.

    And 3PriusMike, sure the Model 3 is better. But configured the same way, not priced the same. I'm not cheap but I don't like to spend that extra money that can be earning me $. I also decided I didn't want a car my wife couldn't drive. It would totally intimidate her, she struggles with new interfaces.
     
  6. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    if by change that "dealers will Embrace" equates to all cars being hybrid, then Toyota goes to plug in hybrid ..... yea I guess that forces dealers to be 'embracing' plug-in hybrid sales Critters. Still - it has taken roughly 2 decades just to get Toyota to one plug in hybrid (so far), a sedan, even as customers are shying away from, for now. Taking two decades, I shudder to think how long this will take - for Toyota to even get to ½ their cars plug-in ... at least here in the USA. How many years has the Mitsubishi Outlander been selling like hotcakes, worldwide?
    .
     
    #66 hill, Dec 10, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  7. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    The catch is, there is not an innovator's dilemma. It's a perception being portrayed by not looking at the bigger picture. The example of "not stressing the MPG" provides evidence supporting that. People already know what HYBRID FROM TOYOTA means. There isn't anything to stress. There isn't even anything to advertise. The technology has become so ubiquitous, nothing needs to be said.

    It's as elementary as knowing "there's an app for that". Nothing else needs to be said. The technology involved and the anticipated benefit has become knowledge so common, you're just wasting time putting any focus on it. Remember, advertising a complex product means focusing on what the potential customer doesn't already know, not sighting the obvious.

    As for success, you must know what the goal is. Toyota currently has their desired take-rate set in the 20% to 25% range for RAV4 hybrid.
     
  8. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Ford must have a battery source as they are getting ready to manufacture a pick up EV. Arguably he biggest auto manufacturer, Volkswagen, recently announced going all EV - that means they too are planning to not end up battery supply constrained. there's the Tesla pickup in the near future & they're on their 4rth factory iirc. Hyundai / Kia likely source from their own country - LG. With the electric pickup announcement from GM, makes sense they'd have to start assuring they're going to be able to supply traction packs. Building - then starting up a battery Factory might help gage how soon an EV pickup can get to (USA) market from scratch.
    .
     
  9. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    My point to John was that I would have purchased a Prius EV that came with a Tesla drive train (or something like it).
    The Model 3 interface is odd but I generally like it. But it has bugs in the entertainment code...nothing in the actual driving portion. And that was my point...that Toyota would have gotten lots of sales just in terms of being a Toyota -- reliable, service everywhere, etc. Instead they gave all the early adopter sales to Tesla.
    This has allowed Tesla to build out the Supercharger network faster ad wider than anyone would have thought.
    This is a big deterrent to many against buying anything other than a Tesla in the next few years.
    It is not a "winner take all" kind of thing...but it is a case of the early winner taking a big part of the market that the incumbents may never get back.

    Look at what has happened in the luxury car portion of the market. If the Model Y and pickup are as successful as the Model 3 (to date) then the pain is going to be spread to many car makers in the mid range.

    Mike
     
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  10. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    More good news - the battery Factory joint venture has the hopes of further reducing LG cost per kilowatt-hour down below $100;

    GM announces its own battery gigafactory with LG Chem, 30 GWh of capacity eventually below $100/kWh - Electrek

     
  11. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    keep hope alive
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    There'll be a small diesel option at least.
     
  14. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    This is not surprising. It is pretty well accepted that GM, Toyota, VW and most of the others make the most money on large SUVs and trucks.
    It isn’t as if GM wouldn’t be raking in cash on high margin SUVs and trucks if they weren’t making EVs.
     
  15. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    3 liter inline 6 diesel in the Suburban/Yukon thingie.

    now add 6mt and start stop
     
  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    you're taking all the fun out of kicking gm when they're down :cool:
     
  17. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    don't throw away your golf cleats just yet .... ya never know ....

    .
     
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  18. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    oh, don't worry, i'll be kicking until all their talk actually produces something of value
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The diesel Cruze and Equinox had start/stop. So do several of the gas models.

    Among the full size trucks, I think Ram is the only one that still offers a manual, which probably doesn't extend to their SUVs.
     
  20. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    https://www.google.com/amp/s/insideevs.com/news/388159/ev-tax-credit-extension-explained/amp/

    There’s bipartisan support of increasing the per manufacturer tax credit to 600,000 units but ending the credit in 2024 for everyone regardless of credits used.

    I wonder if Toyo can sell 5xx,xxx units in 4 years?