Update and technical details on my PHEV project

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by pEEf, Nov 17, 2010.

  1. imwoody36

    imwoody36 the prius parts guy

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    Mesuge has accurately listed the players, I wonder who it is?
     
  2. jdh2550

    jdh2550 Co-Founder, Current Motor Company

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    Yeah, I think you nailed it - the natural commercial progression of the tech is to combine it to save cost. Can't really fault big T for that. The tinkerers were probably just a minor annoyance - but not really a big issue.

    The way I look at it though is that there are a LOT of gen 2 prii out there. Imagine the efficiency impact when they're all converted to plug-in's :D

    What I want as a tinkerer is an affordable platform - buying high-mileage used is the way to go! It's also more environmentally sound (remember the old adage: reuse, then recycle and only then replace).

    It is a bummer about gen 3 but let's use up all those gen 2's first :rockon:

    Now, :focus:

    pEEf what's the latest on your developments?
     
  3. Mesuge

    Mesuge New Member

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    Agree, my angle on Toyota/gen2 hybrid system and its clones made by Ford/GM/Nissan was more in the line, that the gen3 might present possible dead-end of these interesting PHEV options of today, similarly how calcars efforts dropped to zero few years ago. Now, they seem to reactive at least in the area of 3rd party addon gauges for Volt/Leaf..and other clearly unfinished products :D

    Btw. it seems from other recent threads here, that PIS and Keit are already onto first stages of cracking the gen3 nut, so lets hope it will be a successfull project. If there is a PIS effort underway, one can not strike out PICC and Andrew, so chances are it will eventually materialize. Given Toyota promised a dozen of hybrid models before 2020, that's a big potential market.

    The third option "pEEf" that's a project enlisted right here on this forum, however, with not much details for possilbe replication so far, the author (same ID on forum) used custom a123 6.5kWh based pack (looks like sweetspot for fast charging), ditched the OEM NiMH pack, designed own spoofing boards etc. Pretty remarkable if it works as advertised.

    linky: http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-...-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicle-project.html
     
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  4. imwoody36

    imwoody36 the prius parts guy

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    Mesuge, I heard that pEEf received a cease and desist letter from Ewert energy.
    He must have stepped on a nerve. Too bad, the world needs lots of phev pruii.
    in other news at breakfast today, an educated man said to me " did you know electric cars are coal fired?"
    He seemed not to hear my answer that even coal produced electricity is more efficient than burning gasoline under the hood.
     
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  5. jdh2550

    jdh2550 Co-Founder, Current Motor Company

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    Yuck! It's not like he stole anything from them - he may be doing close to the same thing - but he started from scratch just like they did. I hate the dang patent system when it's used as a "race to patent first"...:mad:

    pEEf - tell us it ain't so... :confused:
     
  6. pEEf

    pEEf Engineer - EV nut

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    On the 3rd gen: It's very hackable, maybe even more so. I have looked at it a few times and it should be possible to do many interesting things. Since I don't currently own one, I haven't investigated further.

    The Ewerts have apparently applied for a patent. Probably due to the current stress the patent system is under, they don't yet actually have one. Who knows; they may never be granted one because their patent is useless if there is prior art, which there is. They did send me a PM here, warning me of their patent application, and then kindly ignoring my responses. I won't tell you what I think of them and their message, As I am not one to talk bad about people.

    I have since looked at a PICC kit; it is heavy and a mess. Poorly implemented using old technology large-format Nimh cells. They re-purposed Toyota's battery ECU rather than making their own, and err on the "safe side" by running the battery fan way more than needed. I can see why it's so expensive!

    My implementation works great for me, but would still need a lot of work in order to make it an affordable and reasonable upgrade kit for people. I have no intention of getting in the PHEV kit business myself, but I am willing to help others develop better systems. Sounds like PICC could use my help! =)

    My focus right now is on the PRIUSCAN, so we can have a better alternative to the ScanGauge. That is much easier to get to market soon, and has a wider audience.
     
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  7. jdh2550

    jdh2550 Co-Founder, Current Motor Company

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    Whew! :) Am I glad to hear that!

    I'm so glad to hear this news. I was wondering about the prior art issue and I agree with you about the PICC kit. On the one hand I can understand why they need to protect themselves against copycats who might simply reverse engineer what they've done. However, someone who reverse engineers from Toyota should be aware that they live and die by the quality of their package - not by saying "hey, now we've reverse engineered things no one else can".

    Anyways - I still look forward to trying to recreate pEEf's approach. Which, for the record, I was thinking of doing before I saw pEEf's thread and after finding out that the PICC is way too expensive and uses old tech and can't be bought as separate components. (there's a hint to the PICC folks there). However, given the fact that pEEf has done so much of the heavy lifting and has indicated he's willing to share - but not support (important distinction which I fully respect) - I'd be crazy to start from square one.

    I'm confident I can recreate something similar, but not identical, to pEEf's approach. Unfortunately my plans are on hold because my Subaru Legacy GT Wagon self destructed due to a KNOWN ISSUE. $36K in 2006 and I got $3,600 in 2011 - gee, thanks Subaru!

    That threw my whole personal "car buying economics" into disarray. Probably a 6 month set back :(

    But as soon as I dig out of that whole and sell my Focus and replace it with a Prius then "game on!"

    Thanks pEEf - keep up the good work!
     
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  8. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    Yay!!!!!
     
  9. coulomb

    coulomb Junior Member

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    Oh! It didn't sound that way earlier. Glad to hear it, and I'd value any pointers.

    Heh, America: the land of the free! But not (mostly) the free exchange of ideas, it seems.

    However, I suppose if they do manage to get a patent, it could impact on your developments, especially if (as it seems you don't) you wanted to develop something commercially in competition with them. So I suppose in that sense a "warning" could be considered friendly, in a menacing kind of way. I'm afraid that I'm not a big supporter of the patents system; I think it should be replaced completely with some other system that somehow prevents copying a design (in the situation where that would disadvantage the original designer).
     
  10. Mesuge

    Mesuge New Member

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    Great news. I guesss you can whenever necessary start an open source project online, plus place giant donate button on the page, and you are all set. Frankly, I don't grasp the PICC-Ewert's position? Let them keep focused on fleet clients and deep pocketed individuals and they can make still huge monies out there. If Toyota's promise is going to materialize over next two years, that several smaller cars like Yaris/Echo will get the same HSD drivetrain (featuring smaller ICE), then we certainly need as most and flexible 72mph mod kits as possible, damn lot of people would be glad even for pathetic "lite version" with 60mph mod. It's a big world, don't be stupidly greedy folks..

    imwoody36> you are close to the PIS guys right? I hope they are not somehow threatened in launching their boards as well, that would be totaly scandalous.
     
  11. imwoody36

    imwoody36 the prius parts guy

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    I consider myself close and friendly to both Plug-in supply, and Plug-in Conversions.
    I interpret the delay from PIS to be in manufacturing, as small scale hand built circuit boards have been demonstrated on youtube by them.
    additionally, the Ewerts are now marketing a battery management system that will replace the 2nd gen prius battery ecu.
    I have one, but normal prius repairs have delayed me from testing it yet.
    here is a link
    Orion Li-Ion Battery Management System
     
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  12. Flaninacupboard

    Flaninacupboard Senior Member

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    I see, so their BMS manages a lithium pack and sends all the correct data to the HV ECU to maximise it's use.

    What are they doing with gen3? i hope it can be cracked soon...
     
  13. jdh2550

    jdh2550 Co-Founder, Current Motor Company

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    I work with batteries and BMS's (we make our own BMS). The Orion seems to be *VERY* impressive.

    Good job to the Ewert's. I hope they concentrate on innovation and new products.
     
  14. imwoody36

    imwoody36 the prius parts guy

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    They ( Ewert energy systems) demonstrated a 3rd gen prius at hybridfest in Madison wi last year with a "cracked" engine controller.
     
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  15. mrbigh

    mrbigh Prius Absolutum Dominium

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    Impressive development of the Ewert's, the Orion BMS will become the biggest competitor for Davide's Lituamate BMS.
    Strange is that I haven't see any sort of publicity about their new product besides this commentary form Steve until now.
     
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  16. imwoody36

    imwoody36 the prius parts guy

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    They posted the product announcement on the old EAA-PHEV email ring.
    the one where the open source phev project began years ago.

    I have copied the announcement below...

    The Orion BMS (http://www.orionbms.com) is a full featured battery
    management system (BMS) that is pin compatible with the '04 - '09 Prius
    OEM battery management system wiring harness and is extremely
    programmable so that it can interface directly with the Prius and almost
    all modern hybrid vehicles. It has dual CAN interfaces and can be used
    as a drop in replacement of the Toyota NiMH BMS for battery replacement
    conversions and can also be used for add-on battery conversions, such as
    the CalCars style conversion that was developed on this group. The
    Orion BMS is a centralized design which allows a high level of immunity
    to electrical noise, offers significant increases in speed, accuracy and
    reliability and can measure cell voltages down below 1V per cell. In
    addition to lots of other bells and whistles, it has a full set of
    features for plug-in hybrids including custom mode selection (for charge
    sustain, charge deplete, charge up, etc) as well as virtual battery
    support (eg: simulating a smaller battery within the larger battery)
    which can be used for standard hybrid operation once the battery is
    depleted. It also includes real isolation fault detection to detect
    breakdowns in isolation, redundant pack voltage monitoring and support
    for redundant current sensors.

    There are 2 BMS units being given away in contest for the most creative
    proposed project to reduce dependence on fossil fuels:
    http://www.orionbms.com/orionbms-giveaway-contest/

    Also, there is a $125 off discount from published retail rates for
    eaa-phev members for a 48 cell or larger system using the code EAAPHEV
    between April 20th, 2011 and May 25th, 2011.

    Chris
     
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  17. Glowplug

    Glowplug New Member

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    Hello everyone! I'm in here a little late so bear with me.

    One thing I don't understand about this method is throttle control of the ICE after its ECU has been isolated from the primary CAN bus. If drive-by-wire throttle signals are sent directly to the HV ECU they are normally relayed to the ICE ECU via the CAN.

    If you isolate the ICE ECU from the CAN how does it know throttle position?
     
  18. Flaninacupboard

    Flaninacupboard Senior Member

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    The CAN signals are selectively intercepted. Once you return to "normal prius" mode the messages are allowed to flow and the ICE is controlled normally.
     
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  19. Glowplug

    Glowplug New Member

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    Interesting. I must have completely misunderstood peefs method or taken his first post out of context.

    "I had to totally disconnect the engine ECM from the CAN bus and run it on it's own second CAN bus from my BMS board."

    I interpreted this as meaning he has two controller networks, the stock prius network and one he created with just his BMS and the ICE ECU. He must mean that his BMS sends data inline through the CAN when necessary to instruct the ICE ECU to remain in glide?

    I hope these aren't extremely obvious questions I'm asking! Thanks for the quick reply, you guys are great. :)
     
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  20. coulomb

    coulomb Junior Member

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    My understanding is that just one of the ECUs is put on a totally separate bus, with a bridge between the two. The bridge copies most packets across, but suppresses some and possibly modifies others before sending on the the other bus. What gets suppressed or modified and how depends on the present driving mode (mostly electric verses hybrid).
     
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