US Flag Desecration on 9/11

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Sep 10 2006, 10:42 PM) [snapback]317612[/snapback]</div>

You raise some very valid points.

My response is that there is a big difference between insulting someone directly, and expressing political or religious views that that person finds insulting. It is sometimes a fine line, as when the nazis wanted to march through a neighborhood principally occupied by concentration-camp survivors, with plackards claiming that there had never been concentration camps.

I do not, and I would not, go into the VFW and start making disparraging remarks about veterans, because that would merely be provoking them. But if I state in a public forum that war is nothing but organized, state-sponsored mass-murder, no different from any other form of terrorism, and if that offends members of the VFW, well then, that's just tough, because the strength of this country is people's right and willingness to speak out against the government when they believe it to be in the wrong.

Similarly, I would criticise anyone who walked into a VFW hall, dropped his pants, and wiped his butt with the flag. I would say he was just being provocative, and given the venue it was insulting. But if he wipes his butt with a flag in a public place, as a considered statement of his Constitutionally-protected right of freedom of expression, then I don't particularly care if the VFW gets offended.

And as an aside, I will add that in all my years of protest I have never desecrated the flag (I don't consider it a useful act) and I have never carried or displayed a slogan that a reasonable person would find offensive. In all my acts of civil disobedience back in North Dakota, at the Air Force base and the missiles it maintains, the most prominant banner we displayed was one that read: "US AIR FORCE: GOOD PEOPLE, BAD PRODUCT" My exchanges with Air Force personnel were always polite, and on the occasions when a trial resulted in my being given the official Air Force account of the events, they always use the words "peaceful" and either "courteous" or "polite" in describing me and my fellow-protesters.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Sep 10 2006, 07:13 PM) [snapback]317554[/snapback]</div>

Fair enough, and thanks for the link. I wasn't trying to make someone else do my searching. When I look for federal code, I generally use the House code search. (BTW, Tony, thanks for the other links. They may be more useable than the one I use.) The post I responded to said there are no penalties for violations of the Flag Code. The link you posted is a very good one for the display of the flag, but it isn't all of the Flag Code -- if you include everything in Title 4, Chapter 1 that applies. Section three specifically delineates uses of the flag that constitute misdemeanor punishable by fine.

Now, it's kind of a trivial point, and I guess I could have explained better at the time, but I was curious whether
fshagan and I were looking at the same thing. Having now reread his post, I see that he qualified it. Section 3 does indeed apply only to DC.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Sep 9 2006, 04:04 PM) [snapback]317069[/snapback]</div>

One thing that bothers me is people leaving their flag out for weeks at a time (supposed to be lit if out at night) or in the rain. Or flying from a car antennae until it's a barely-recognized rag.

I didn't put out my flag today because of the rain that won't stop. I'm also a little bothered by the conservatives assuming anybody flying the flag agrees with them, which almost makes me want to stop flying the flag, to keep from being associated with the conservative right-wing. I'm thinking of combining a "support the troops" sticker with a "You must be this tall to vote for Bush" sticker, which has a picture of Hitler doing the arm-raised thing. Perhaps a little extreme, but I think that would get the point across, but how easy is it to get bumper stickers off after two years? Also, it wouldn't go over too well with parts of my family...

 

I used to be a Catholic. I recall we used to get a lot of grief from various Protestant denominations who saw all the statues in our churches and condemned us for idolatry. They refused to accept the explanation that the statues were placed there to remind us of the various folks who had gone before us and led exemplary lives. In other words, they were symbols to get us thinking the right way.

The flag is like the statues. Nobody should elevate it to the level of the sacred. It's a piece of cloth which should inspire us to noble thoughts and deeds. When I saluted it in the military, I wasn't personifying it to the state of worship. If it accidently touched the ground when I sometimes lowered it during Retreat, I didn't take to my room in tears and sorrow. It's the idea that is important, not the fabric.

The British are about as patriotic as any other group. I remember a very senior Sergeant Major being asked what the Brits did with old flags. "They make wonderful polishing cloths," he said. I don't care what emotional baggage old soldiers might dredge up concerning what they think about "the flag." We've never gone to hostilities with a country just because they burned ours. Nobody I know was willing to die to protect a physical flag. But what it stood for? Another matter.....

 

To me, the flag represents the American Ideals of civil liberties which include the right to your choice of religion, personal beliefs, the right to be liberal or conservative, the right to choose your political party, and, the right to burn our flag in protest. The Flag represents advanced citizenship. The right to stand center stage screaming at the top of my voice, my beliefs, next to another person shouting at the top of his lungs that which I have spent a lifetime opposing. That's what its all about! The freedom to dissagree with each other, and our own government, and to vote our conscience at the polls as free thinking individuals. Advanced citizenship is not easy. It comes at a terrible price, but I for one am very proud of the democratic Ideals and the freedoms we enjoy even if I do dissagree with some of them. Show me that same degree of freedom anywhere else... you won't find it. Do I believe the flag is sacred? No, but it represents to me somthing that is, Our freedoms and the same rights given to our adversaries. The right to a fair trial and the right to expect our government working in my best interest and, if I don't think it is, then, it's my right to burn the flag in protest.
-Paul R. Haller-
P.S. flame suit now on in preparation for the trial by fire.

 

Just make it legal to give a swift kick in the @$$ for anyone desecrating the flag. Next time someone is out burning the thing takes a beating from the patriotic biker bubbas we can just tell them too bad, don't desecrate the flag and you won't get beat.

Much the same way if you go out and find a bunch of bikers and start talking smack about their mama... You do have freedom of speech for that... Anyone here want to go on and exercise it?

 

I agree with PA and Daronspicher. If you desecrate the flag you are an idiot but it should not be against the law.

In the importal words of Sergeant Hulka from stripes, "Lighten up, Francis." Life is way to short to get your shorts all tied up in a knot over this. Now if someone is making fun of your mama, that calls for a can of whoop-@$$.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pogo @ Sep 11 2006, 08:55 AM) [snapback]317737[/snapback]</div>

I thought I had mentioned this ... the penalties have been invalidated by SupCt decisions ... Texas v. Johnson in 1988 I think, and then Congress enacted a new law in 1989 which is what you see in Section 3, I think. It was invalidated by the SupCt as an unconstitutional infringement of free speech (but they allowed that such actions could be prohibited under laws that forbade burning stuff in public ... the law just cannot specify the flag and desecration of it because desecrating a flag is showing utter contempt for the nation and is therefore a political expression and is protected). I don't remember the year and decision name on the later ruling, but it involved a guy who was really testing the law out by burning a flag on the Capitol steps. I think this was the early 1990s. This gave rise to the ill concieved "Flag burning amendment" efforts, as some Congress-critters are upset that they can't over-rule the Supremes.

State laws are probably unenforceable, and local jurisdictions usually don't have money to burn to arrest someone for flag desecration just to see it challenged all the way through the court system. And since even a conservative court held that flag desecration when done to show contempt is free speech, there isn't much chance that kind of legal activism will be met with success.







<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Sep 11 2006, 11:49 AM) [snapback]317856[/snapback]</div>

Keep flying the flag. One of the major mistakes of the Democratic party is that they have allowed themselves to be defined by the more liberal, America-bashing side of the party. Its ironic, because you would be hard pressed to find more patriotic men than guys like Al Gore and John Kerry, who have served their country as representatives throughout their lives. I want an active, vigorous and healthy opposition party that speaks to the center, as that will keep the far right loons from gaining any more influence in the Republican party.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 11 2006, 07:54 AM) [snapback]317697[/snapback]</div>

Yes, I agree here, and do think a forum like this is probably not the place to be overly sensitive to other's feelings, but I do think there are a few things that people will hold closer to their vest ... their core beliefs, if you will ... and I'd like to see some more consideration in society as a whole to those considerations. For me, its understanding people like PETA and the Michael Moore crowd (although that is extremely hard for me to do, as the only PETA organization I would join would be "People Eating Tasty Animals" and Michael Moore is just too slovenly).

Its the direct attacks that distrub me, although I am guilty of it myself in debate.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Paul R. Haller @ Sep 12 2006, 02:06 AM) [snapback]318181[/snapback]</div>

It seems ironic, at first, that someone would use the symbolism of what a flag represents to protect their right to burn that same flag, but I hear what you're saying. I disagree with the part about not finding the same degree of freedom anywhere else, but that's a minor quibble. Does this right to burn the American flag in protest apply to everyone?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Sep 10 2006, 02:22 PM) [snapback]317407[/snapback]</div>

I'm a fiscally conservative, socially liberal Teddy/Abe era loving Republican, who has been a Democrat; raised in a family of them...I'm also a Follower of Christ who just happens to be a ordained Pastor, who is about liberal as can be to theologically conservative Christians, who often tell me that I'm going to hell for not condemning gays, or others like them.

I am a NAVY vet. I have served. And frankly, I would have put my life on the line so someone could burn the flag.

It's what Free Speech is all about. You can spit on it, trample it, beat it up, smoke it...the flag, it's made of cloth.

The PRINCIPLE behind what the flag represents, that is what I enlisted for. Not some cloth. At the end of the day, even after it's been burned, stabbed, spat on, pooped on, pissed on, even after all of that, not one thing has been done to the SPIRIT of what that flag represents. It's that simple.

Why people get all bent out of shape for the flag, when we have way more important issues to worry about. That is what I wonder about.

Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion.

You take one away, you will lose the other.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 9 2006, 07:04 PM) [snapback]317183[/snapback]</div>

Question to All:
The right to burn the flag is covered under freedom of speech.
Does that also include burning the gay (rainbow) flag?

Not that I would ever consider doing either . . . I'm just wondering what peoples' feelings are regarding desecrating any and all symbols.

Is one form of hate speech of a lesser significance than another?

If I bought it, should I be allowed to stand on my front lawn and burn . . .
. . . The American Flag?
. . . The Rainbow Flag?
. . . A cross with Jesus on it?
. . . A big plain cross? [oops, that one could get you in trouble]

Where do you (society) draw the line?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Sep 13 2006, 04:15 AM) [snapback]318833[/snapback]</div>

In a free society, where that line is, is often blurred. But, I would rather a person burn a cross on their lawn, then live in a country where they can't.

It's tricky, but I think that what I like, or do, is not always the same as others, and therefore, I shouldn't try to tell them what to do. It's up to them.

Life is full of choices, some good, some bad. You have to live with what you do.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Sep 13 2006, 02:47 AM) [snapback]318839[/snapback]</div>

Laws restricting some speech are upheld. Cross burnings can be outlawed under Virginia v. Black, as described here: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getc...p;invol=01-1107 When the law restricting speech is implemented to prevent "real threats" or when it is to restrict speech that is "intended to create a pervasive fear in victims that they are a target of violence."

I can only imagine the impact of a cross burning on a black man, or the march of neo-nazis through my neighborhood if I were a holocaust survivor. And I suspect my "imagining" doesn't come close to the intimidation the person at the focus of such an act would feel.

If you read the decision though, part of the Virginia statute was struck down. That law evidently said the act of burning a cross was "prima facia" evidence of the intent to intimidate, so the prosecution only had to show someone burned a cross, and the rest of the prosecution was assured. The court said, in essence, that the prosecution has to show not only that the accused burned the cross, but that his intent was to engage in non-protected speech (such as intimidation or incitement to riot, etc.)

Its never as simple as just black and white. The Constitution is not meant to be a suicide pact, so we can and do reason through individual issues to come to mutual agreement.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Paul R. Haller @ Sep 11 2006, 11:06 PM) [snapback]318181[/snapback]</div>

Freedom of speech is one of the best things about America. But it is not unique here. The Scandanavian countries, and I think much, if not all, of Western Europe, have the same degree of freedom of speech that we have. The Brits have very strong anti-libel laws, and a draconian official-secrets act, but criticising the government is still free. And in Mexico, where I lived for a while, the press is far more critical of the government than is ours and people can and do speak their opposition freely.

It's a myth that only America enjoys such freedoms.

Note also that flag-desecration is not hate speech. Though it may be offensive to people who regard the flag itself as sacred, it is not seen as a threat of violence or an incitement to violence. It is illegal to threaten to kill someone, or to incite others to kill someone, so when the desecration of symbols crosses that line, it becomes illegal. The KKK has a long history of murdering black people and civil rights workers, and cross-burning has long been their trademark. Thus it's understood to be a threat of violence.

I'll repeat that I've never desecrated the flag because I feel it's counter-productive. People may be offended by my opinions, and that will not stop me from expressing them. But I never take actions with the intention of offending people. In a large demonstration there will always be people doing things I disapprove of. But I never become involved with groups that practice or condone offensive behavior or language for the primary purpose of offending.

 

So, it seems it's OK to burn the flag in protest, under the legal protection of freedom of speech. But that's not much protection.

If I were to wrap myself in Canadian colours, and burn an American flag in any public US venue, I would not expect there to be enough left of me to bother shipping home in a box.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Sep 14 2006, 03:30 PM) [snapback]319752[/snapback]</div>

Aw, c'mon, we let you guys come here and steal our jobs all the time, like that guy on Rockstar Supernova.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Sep 14 2006, 11:34 PM) [snapback]319897[/snapback]</div>

:lol:

 

A Flag is nothing more than a piece of cloth as a cross is nothing more than a piece of metal or wood or plastic.
If you desecrate the cross.. what are you really saying?


We get tied up on terms and the English language so I want to reword the question....

"Is it ok to desecrate the people of the United States of America and everything it stands for"

What ever you think America Stands for... is it peace, freedom, liberty, Free enterprise etc...



Do you feel it has let you down and now she is a lier so you want to spoil its faded charcter that you feel is a lie?

Are you trying to be a brat and just piss somebody off?.. or do you really feel America sucks and its symbol should be desecrated?



America is what America is.. its not perfect, and its not your mother nor your father.. she is not obligated to provide for you, educate you, or house you.

If your expectations are unrealistic and she has let you down, maybe you need to check out your expectations?

America is us.... "we" make it up.

What expectations are you expecting me and eveyone else on this forum to provide you that has not been fullfilled?

When you desecrate America, you desecrate everyone who lives in it that supports it.



And yes... you may really like it better somewhere else... Plane fares are cheap.. go hop on one with your one way ticket and kiss America Goodby and see if you can find another mother that treats you better.


By the way... when are you going to grow up?... aren't you are supposed to be supporting your mother and father now if your an adult?

If you are an Adult, you are supposed to be supporting America.

Supporting means you can complain about injustice's and work to make it better.

But when you trample upon it, your just being a immature, spoiled, self centered little jerk that has alot to learn about basic life.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Sep 15 2006, 12:34 PM) [snapback]320137[/snapback]</div>

Are these your words? 'Cause they sound a lot like you cut and pasted here.

As for me, my parents are dead, IRL, and frankly, I hated my mother, so using that analogy just does not wash with me.

And also, if you are a 'grown up', you should be able to take it. Do you flip off the other driver because he/she flipped you off? Do you go into a road rage if you get cut off? No? Good. That means you are an adult, that is mature enough to let things slide.

And this country should be mature enough by now, to let things slide. Otherwise, if it's not, then this country is like the little child that cries, 'he put mud on my shirt! Mom! Do something!' and that is not mature.

It's childish. And if this country is indeed, childish, then it has no place trying to run the world, which it currently is trying to do.

So which is it? Is the USA mature enough to let the little things, like burning a piece of cloth, slide off it's collective back, or is childish, and can't get past that simple act of stupidity? I mean, come on. This is a country where you should be able to say, and do, what you want. I may not like it, (Like when I get flipped off, or cut off when I am driving), but I'm old enough and mature enough to know that the person who is burning the flag, is just acting childish, and should be treated as such.

 

Just because you have a "right" to speak, does not make what you speak right!


If burning the flag means nothing then whats the power in burning it?

Don't you think you're kidding yourselve a bit?

On the one hand when you want to speak your anger against authority, administration, and all that has brought you up and sheltered you, you want burning the flag to be a power statement of rebellion and bitterness against the motherland.

but on the other hand when someone challenges you for the right to do so, you say its no big deal?

Which is it?.. a big deal or not... if its not, then don't burn it, because its a big deal to those who died to protect your childish inconsiderate thoughts.

Without those deaths to buy your freedom, you would be executed for much less than burning the flag.

Now, just because you have the freedom to burn it "because the flag bought that freedom", it is not right to burn it.

Its the same as killing the one who brought you into this world and nurtured you when you couldn't wipe your own butt or feed yourself.
If you are bitter against that person, I"m really very sorry.. I have my own issues too... But don't take it out on the flag.