US Flag Desecration on 9/11

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Sep 15 2006, 09:34 AM) [snapback]320137[/snapback]</div>

Do you really think desecrating the flag is desecrating the American people??? If you truly cannot comprehend the difference between a symbol, and the meaning some people attach to that symbol, then I feel sorry for you. Is there really no difference for you between burning a picture of someone you don't like, and actually killing that person???

The Constitution enshrines the rights we enjoy as Americans. The flag is a symbol that represents the government (federal buildings, diplomatic cars, embassys, polling places, etc) and for some people represents the nation.

As soon as you grant the flag a higher importance than the rights that make the nation what it is, you have lost the very thing that flag is supposed to stand for. Elevate the symbol above the substance, and you debase the substance itself, and with it you debase the symbol. In other words:

There is no greater desecration of the flag, than to idolize the physical cloth itself, apart from what it symbolizes. The Brits have it right, when they use old flags to polish their boots. I'm actually surprised that a Christian, so ingrained with the commandment to make no graven images, would worship a piece of cloth: essentially a graven image.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 10 2006, 06:58 PM) [snapback]317485[/snapback]</div>

So "Veterans for peace" would approve using the flag as toilet paper? Check with them and get back to us..

Veterans did what they did, and do what they do so you can say what you want to say....lighten up on the politics and thank a vet...give them a flag, check out the reaction....and get back to us

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mastergunnera8 @ Sep 15 2006, 08:21 PM) [snapback]320395[/snapback]</div>

That's not what I said, and you know it perfectly well. They would agree with me that war is not the answer to anything (other than profits for big corporations) and they would agree with me that the rights and freedoms enshrined in the Constitution are far more important than the symbolism attached to a piece of cloth.

 

This all comes down to RESPECT, something that is sorely lacking today. Kids used to be taught to respect others, and to respect the things that are important to others. For the last couple of decades, that respect is apparently thought to stifle the little darlin's creativity or some such crap.

Once again, it all comes down to the various ways of phrasing what is commonly known as the Golden Rule. My favorite phrasing of it is "That which you would find hateful, do not do to another". Desecrating someone else's symbol, whatever it may be, is probably going to be considered hateful. People need to find some other way to get their little "point" across.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(glenhead @ Sep 16 2006, 07:02 AM) [snapback]320492[/snapback]</div>

I agree with this completely. Thanks for a bit of clarity!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Sep 15 2006, 04:04 PM) [snapback]320219[/snapback]</div>

You don't get me, or what I am saying.

Where did I say 'I want to burn the flag'? No where. To me, it's not a big deal. Again, served in the NAVY. Which is much more then most folks, who want to burn the flag, or get mad if it is.

If this is a swipe at my comment about hating my mother, I never said I wanted to kill her. Glad she is dead, I am, I won't deny. She was a bitter person who is better off dead. Sometimes death is a release, and it released her from her pain.

Frankly, the power that is burning the flag is given by those very people who don't want it burned. If you react, and those who get off on your reaction to the burning of the flag, know you will react in such a way, then they will continue to do it.

If, however, the act of a burning flag was ignored, because, really, it's a simple piece of cloth, then those who burn it as a act of defiance, well, they won't get off. They will stop it. It's a bit like ignoring the child who is throwing a tantrum; eventually, they will shut up, and move on.

*Yawn*. This bores me. Wipe your butt with the flag. Wear the flag. Salute the flag. It is, at the end of the day, a piece of cloth, that was made in China probably, and frankly, there are other concerns that should be making one upset in this country, like, I don't know, a war with a country that had nothing to do with 9/11...Or an upcoming war with a country that wants Western reform, like real democracy, that if we go to war with, will only push them away from democracy...

But hey, you want worry about a simple piece of cloth, go ahead. It's your worry, not mine.

Have a great day.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 15 2006, 11:19 PM) [snapback]320393[/snapback]</div>

What
A
Great
Post!

Thanks.

It's good to see someone gets it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(glenhead @ Sep 16 2006, 10:02 AM) [snapback]320492[/snapback]</div>

People need to grow up, and then maybe this country will be treated with respect.

Funny thing here, you want people in other countries to respect the USA, and what it stands for.
Freedom of Speech, for example. Yet, the very act of expression that so many people get upset about, the burning of the flag, makes those people want to silence those they disagree with.

What message does that send the rest of the world? I can tell you. It says, 'Do as we say, not as we do.'

 

Daniel & TJandGENESIS, it's so nice to read such well-written & rational arguments. You both say what I think in ways I couldn't.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 15 2006, 08:19 PM) [snapback]320393[/snapback]</div>

Gee Daniel, you really are confused!

I started my little speech saying the flag is just a cloth.... in case you didn't catch it the first time.


And being a christian means your are not idolizing a cross, but the one it represents.

But I"m sorry, in your case I realize you don't have a God... so I see your point.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Sep 16 2006, 11:39 AM) [snapback]320555[/snapback]</div>

Do you have no understanding of symbols?

I guess it mean't no point for men to give thier lives to raise the flag at Iwo Gima?

What a stupid loss of life to raise a flag that mean't nothing in the air. The superior officier that ordered it should be court martialed right?

We idolized a piece of cloth enough that mens lives were taken to get it a few feet off the ground.

I guess those that saw it wondered what they were doing and what it mean't?


It amazes me how some people just can't see that fat meat is greasy!

Do you have nothing that is valuable to you that means something other than the molecules that make it up? A picture, a ring, an old letter?

If a flag is just a cloth, what value do you have?... you're just a carbon based body that has a few pennys worth of chemical makeup?... mere atoms and molecules...

what about Gold bars... want some of those?..... oh no.... not for you... you don't understand symbols and gold is just dirt out of the ground....

Have any greenbacks in your pocket?.. I'll take those too, since they are just paper like the flag is only cloth.

People live and die for paper every day...... I suppose the title deed to your house is worth nothing?

Do you know how to read?.. those are symbols.. but to you its just ink on paper with no sense because you cannot understand symbols.


So you don't get it......

you will rationalize anything away to defend your point and you will even believe it yourself is the greater deception!.... but what can I expect from someone who cannot even see God, when the earth is filled with his symbols and all that he has made.

Daniel, you look at everything around you and merely see them as events of chance and cannot see God in the artistry and beauty that only a He could have put together... even so you can't see America in the flag.

I don't mean to hurt feelings, but some people do not get it gracefully.


I hope you pray to the God you don't believe in, that he will give you eyes to see the obvious that so many others can see.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Sep 16 2006, 01:07 PM) [snapback]320575[/snapback]</div>

Wow..this is really getting scary..... I'm really worried about this country. Kinda makes you not want to have kids eh?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Sep 16 2006, 08:17 PM) [snapback]320647[/snapback]</div>

You're right. I really should be able to better express myself. But my wife is the wordsmith. I'm just a computer geek.

Let's get back to Tony's original question about flag desecration. I've seen arguments that intent is more important than the letter of the law. We've had links to the actual flag code itself.

From what I've read, we all agree that burning the flag is idiotic and a lot of people who do it are doing it just for the attention. However, it is a protected form of protest.

I think using the flag for political motives of any kind is a form of desecration. Using it as a political tool is inflammatory. That's not what the flag my grandfathers fought for stands for. Along with freedom, our flag is a symbol of inclusion.

I don't think that President Bush should have autographed a flag. I think it was poor judgment. I'd say the same thing if Clinton autographed one. Was it desecration? If you follow the letter, yes. Was it intentional? No.

Schimka and Godiva both stated things quite well.

Am I going to get my undies in bundle because Bush autographed the flag? No more so than if some attention whore burns it.

 

The letter of the law only "sometimes" represents the wishes of the vote of the people... yet its the law.
There are some laws I honor and some I don't. I speed quite frequently for instance.... there are times on the freeway or backroads that "laws" don't account for when its wide open highway with no one around "the way I prefer it".

Not burning the flag too is a law. You will have to decide on your own if its desecration.

In my opinion.... if there is no harm or you are not making a statement and it means nothing to burn it because its only cloth... then why burn it at all?

There are arguements out that they are just being childish.... thats true, but when they key your car and burn it, or when they go through houses with baseball bats and video it so they can show thier little friends... they are being childish too.... does that mean the laws protect them and they are the victims?

It is protected, but is it right and are they just showing the world how irresponsible and childish they are rather than really making a statement that anyone is actually going to listen to?

Seems to me they are attempting to trigger and incider anger just to feed the fire that burns in thier chest.

I

I see the president as the highest political office in the land... he is the Commander in Chief.
It's only my opinion, but any president or great General signing the flag is an act of honor and respect....


Unless you personally love the country and hate the person signing the flag.... nevertheless, he is the president and he will go down in the History books as so regardless if there are still folks to deny the vote.

Many "acts", you have to see the spirit they were acted in... because the action of the spirit they were done in determines whether it was wrong or not.
I don't think they were putting the president "higher" than America.... just a main part of it.

People buy a goofy Teeshirt at a concert or game... the shirt alone is nothing, but what is written on it is what makes it valuable or precious. The symbol of what it means is the substance of value, not the substance itself.

I'm actually not a super political person... I do fly a flag at my new address, but only because I have a nice flag pole put there from the last owner... I have never flown one in the past.

I just want to challenge the idea that its ok to do what you want because it means nothing...... then why are you doing it in the first place?
I like to challenge those who lie to themselves and then believe it..

I hate self deception.... its the cruelest form of desecration..... to lie to yourself and then you believe it....... What better way to dishonor yourself?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(glenhead @ Sep 16 2006, 07:02 AM) [snapback]320492[/snapback]</div>

??? :blink:

Respect? You mean the way the white settlers respected the American Indians by massacring women and children? You mean the way Europeans respected the rights of Africans by enslaving them? Or the way they were given nothing at all for their centuries of unpaid labor when they were finally freed after a war fought because northern industrial interests wanted cheap labor? You mean the way Protestants and Catholics respected each other by gang wars and tirades from the pulpits of their churches, accusing each other of devil worship and promising eternal hell to each other? You mean the way Christians (young and old) told me I was a Christ-killer because I'm an ethnic Jew? You mean the way the U.S. backed up France's respect for democracy in Vietnam by insisting on re-asserting its colonial control after the Vietnamese fought on our side in WW II, or the way the U.S. respected democracy in Vietnam after the French left by blocking reunification elections because the Vietnamese people would have elected a leader the U.S. didn't like? Do you mean the respect the U.S. has shown for Nicaragua over the years by invading it so many times in the 19th and early 20th centuries, or the way the U.S. supported brutal, murderous tyrants in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Honduras, Chile, and elsewhere? Do you mean the respect political candidates show each other by dishonest smear campaigns?

Respect is something we all give lip-service to, but it's never been evident in our society. I am told that in the far East respect is a value people actually practice. I can't say. I've never been there. But here in the U.S., children may be told to respect other people, but they are taught by example to have contempt for other people. That's the American way: Religious intolerance, racial hatred, homophobia, and a thousand other kinds of virulent and deep-seeded prejudices. (A comprehensive list would probably exhaust the storage space on Danny's server.)

I think respect for others is important, and I strive to embody that respect. But it is the height of disrespect for people, when you respect a symbol more than live human beings. And it is incomprehensibly callous when you can equate the symbolic destruction of a symbolic piece of cloth with physical harm done to actual living human beings.

 

Wow, Daniel, great job of taking what I said and twisting it into something verging on evil. Thanks a heap! I'm sure we're all enlightened.

Please don't parse my statements below - they are intended to be taken in context.

I don't give a rat's nice person what idiots did in the past - that's over and done with, except for what we can learn from it. Everyone can play the victim game for real or perceived slights, if they choose to do so - but it is a conscious choice to do so. There's also the choice to acknowledge what the idiots did, especially when it was one to several generations back, and use that to build a personal foundation for acting like a decent person.

Human beings have done awful things to each other ever since there were human beings. We are all now experts at playing Monday morning quarterback - and we're experts because someone else told us we should think this way or that way. The decisions that were made five years ago, or twenty-three, or six thousand, or yesterday, were all based on the information that was available at the time and place where the decision was made. Quite frequently, the choice came down to "pick your poison" - do you back this despot, with these attributes, or that despot, with a different set of attributes. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Strange that we never focus on the times it works, we only focus, and inflate, and set fire to, the times when things don't go the way we think they should.

There are a helluva lot of people in the world who don't have much to hold onto. Each one of them has something that is important, or sacred, or special, or whatever synonym you choose to use. For some, it's their country, and the flag of that country is a symbol of everything they hold dear. For some, it's their version of god, and the Star of David, or cross, or Q'uran, or statue of Buddha or Vishnu, or token, or whatever is a symbol of that which they hold dear. For you, it may be your cat, or your car, or something else. You may not agree with what someone else has as their "thing", but that doesn't make it an iota less important to them. The version of the Golden Rule I used in the earlier post was from Rabbi Hillel, a contemporary of Jesus. They both had about the same thing to say - be nice to other people. If you wouldn't like it if they did X to you, then don't do it to them. RESPECT them and what they hold dear, just like you'd want them to do for you. You imply that I "equate the symbolic destruction of a symbolic piece of cloth with physical harm done to actual living human beings" - a fantastic job of twisting my point, congratulations! If it's a choice between people and an object, the object comes last. Just ask the people I pulled from their burning houses when I was a firefighter.

You say that respect has "never been evident in our society". Perhaps where you grew up (or are in the process of growing up) that's true - if so, it's very, very sad. The fact that some children are exposed to hatred and other stupidities doesn't condemn an entire society. It also doesn't justify desecrating someone else's "thing" in retaliation. That just means that the person doing the desecration is no better than those they're protesting - they're hurting a lot of people, and not doing anything constructive at all.

We have a choice. Look at what goes on around us, and focus on only the bad things, and rail about them and blame this, that, or the other, and treat any good thing as an anomaly. Then we can go get a latte and rail with others about how evil the world is, and go march, and hold a candlelight vigil, and burn a flag to show how bad the world is. That, to me, is a tragic way to live. We can also look at what goes on around us and focus on only the good things, and rejoice in them, and learn from them, and treat any bad thing as an anomaly, and learn from them, too. Seems the latter is a bit more respectful. We as individuals can't change a lot that's wrong in the Big Picture, but we can make our small sphere a more pleasant place to live in for ourselves and those around us.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 17 2006, 09:28 AM) [snapback]320802[/snapback]</div>

War is hell isn't it?... if you don't like it, you can give your house to a nice Indian Family to do your part to reverse the injustice.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(glenhead @ Sep 17 2006, 10:39 AM) [snapback]320827[/snapback]</div>

Wow.... I felt like I was in a boxing ring against two opponents.... Finally there is someone else out there with the guts to get in the ring......

But Careful Glen....... They might run off if the odds are even, they only do well when they are the majority and always get upset and leave if they start losing the arguement..... or the thread gets closed down because they whine so much they are being victimized. :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(glenhead @ Sep 17 2006, 08:39 AM) [snapback]320827[/snapback]</div>

If you want to get back at him, mention that he is a communist, and that the greatest mass murderers of the 20th century were communists. I did that, and he got (understandably) indignent, and pointed out that was an unfair linking. It was. But he never realized that he is often doing that very thing to people who disagree with his world view (as evidenced by his response to your appeal to teaching respect), and that is the reason I confronted him directly with that statement.

I think what happens is that we hear something so often, and repeat it so frequently that we forget its impact on those that don't agree with us. The old "white people BAD" script has been repeated so much among the left and ultra-left in this country that they don't even realize how patently offensive it is, or how racially insensitive it sounds.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 16 2006, 09:48 AM) [snapback]320488[/snapback]</div>

You said it...and they would not agree that "war is not the answer to anything". The rights and freedoms enshrined in the Constitution were a product of a war (for freedom from persecution). And I know you won't disagree with WWII involvment. Agreed, war is not the solution for everything and should never be better than the last option, but you can't say anything. Unfortunately, we are still doing it for reasons unknown to persons like us without a super double top secret clearance and a need to know. Hopefully those that do have it know what they are doing and act accordingly...hence we should vote for those we believe will uphold and defend the spirit the constitution was founded on, and that the flag stands for. If you are saying we shouldn't go to war over someone burning a symbol, got it...but don't say we shouldn't respect and hold sacred the colors for which our nation was founded on, and many brave patriots have fallen for...they hold it sacred, and we should hold them sacred.

After all that, it is a free country...I don't believe in flag desecration, I think its a slap in the face...but I don't think people should be persecuted for it either...just treat thy neighbor, etc. etc. etc...

As far as corporations, , non-competitive contract awards...bad taste in my mouth, agreed

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mastergunnera8 @ Sep 17 2006, 09:43 PM) [snapback]320992[/snapback]</div>

you said its a free country and then said, you don't believe in something.....

Many take the statement that its a free country to interpret that as meaning it doesn't matter what you believe in, because they are free to " unbelieve" it.

When they live in America yet don't mind desecrating the Flag, I fear they don't believe in anything... nothing is sacred to them, nothing is precious... they are dead men walking... its really sad to see breathing human beings with so little to live for.

If they will desecrate the Flag of the United States of America... what would they do if they lived in a lesser country?

We have yahoo's giving thier lives over in the middle east for a false god, and a country that is a dust bowl or a desert that no-body wants, yet we have people here that take nothing precious and are unthankful for the country they live in without regard to the thousands of lives and spilt blood that bought it for them.

Without war, we would not have this country.

Yes, it would be wonderful if hate, jealousy, and deceit didn't dwell in the hearts of men and we could all live in peace and share everything like in the age of aquarious, but thats not today.

Dealing with men of reason is different than dealing with evil men. And it takes a different approach to sway thier minds.

Evil only respects force and nothing more, it seeks to kill, steal, and destroy anything that is beautiful, just, and worth value....even if it can't have it itself, its satisfied just to destroy it.... It hates anyone who truely lives in peace and is happy with thier lives...... those who can't see the beauty in the Flag have a psych disorder.

I"m sorry for anyone who doesn't get chocked up everytime they hear the star spangled banner, I'm sorry those cannot be thankful and appreciate what they have any more than that.

There are some in this country too that can't believe in anything and despise all that is good.

They see good and evil and evil as good, and they try to vote in men of like mind.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Sep 17 2006, 02:31 PM) [snapback]320861[/snapback]</div>

:lol: