USA Ethanol Policy causing current gaso Price spike?

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by wjtracy, Jul 24, 2013.

Page 3 of 3
  1. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    4,319
    1,527
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    I
    Same thing happens to me when I mention using long life synthetic oil longer than the 5k/10k mile rcommended change interval.
     
    #41 FL_Prius_Driver, Aug 28, 2013
    bwilson4web and Whirldy like this.
  2. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,361
    3,606
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    OK thanks ...once again I am out-of-date... the last I heard was Obama admin was pushing the blender pump option, but you guys saying they ran into problems. The devil is in the details.
     
    #42 wjtracy, Aug 28, 2013
  3. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,361
    3,606
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    That's a good article ... talks about refiners asking for <10% ethanol mandate, apparently in anticipation of the eventual volumes of alternate biomass ethanol/fuels flooding in when the many biomass-to-fuels projects finally start producing at full rates. We're "lucky" most of these plants have had growing pains starting up otherwise we'd really have a lot of biofuels to blend in besides the corn ethanol. Rocky road ahead as the Congress mandates for alternate biomass fuels clash with the corn ethanol interests and refiners.
     
    #43 wjtracy, Aug 28, 2013
  4. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,361
    3,606
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    q you probably want to say ethanol *mandates* should be abolished. I sympathize with that sentiment, but that battle was lost in 1990 when Congress mandated ethanol/oxygenates as part of Clean Air Act Ammendments Act of 1990. It was a big fight then, I assure you. Congress' original rationalization for mandating ethanol was to make gasoline burn cleaner, but when that "spin" that was exposed to be false, Congress changed the rationale to reduce dependence on imported petroleum. It's much harder to shoot down an engrained political/strategic policy.
     
    #44 wjtracy, Aug 28, 2013
  5. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,636
    4,178
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A

    I don't think it was ever much of the administration, but the ethanol lobby and the EPA were pushing it big time. Big enough that they won the right in legal battles in the supreme court. That has pissed off enough people that congress looked almost ready to have democrats and republicans sing cumbaya and reach across the aisle to stop the pending 2014 and 2015 damage. I don't know what will happen but this is the latest.

    DailyTech - Ethanol Protectionism is Rocked by EPA Freeze; E15 Stalled for Now

     
    #45 austingreen, Aug 28, 2013
  6. qdllc

    qdllc Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    1,371
    399
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    When we can start eating gasoline, I say go for it. Makes no sense to turn cropland into fuel production when people are starving around the world. We could live without gasoline. We can't live without food.

    Of course, who ever said politics was rational? o_O
     
    #46 qdllc, Aug 29, 2013
    massparanoia likes this.
  7. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,636
    4,178
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    We do have the brazilian example where the government relaxes alcohol requirements when crops are poor. There is plenty of food in the world today, the US is a large exporter. Starvation is political, or political economics, in 2013. It occurs where governments fail to get food to the starving. This includes the US.

    There is nothing wrong with substituting biofuels for oil. When done right its a good thing. Unfortunately it is being done wrong here. Say the the mandate was changed instead to replace 5% of gasoline over each 2 year period with biofuels. At the same time to fend off possible oil embargos an open fuel standard was adopted, that all new cars could burn at a minimum E25 or M25 or any combination. That would on average amount to E7 (ethanol only has about 70% of the energy). That would leave a price floor in effect to continue distilleries and blending operations, but allow more biofuels to be substituted when ethanol prices are much lower than gasoline, or more natural gas produced methanol if natural gas is much cheaper than oil as it is today. Oil gets cheap, fine you are at E7, even at $1/gallon E0 gas and $10/gallon ethanol it would only make it $1.63 :). At $2/gallon ethanol and $10 gallon E0, E25 would be $8, a fine trade off on price swings for 10 years from now when the fleet would change.

    rarely
     
    #47 austingreen, Aug 29, 2013
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    28,331
    16,022
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I would use one of the injector hacks and run E85 or higher . . . $2.25 and be quite happy.

    Given 70% ratio of BTUs, the break-even is:

    $_per_gallon_E0 = $_per_gallon_E100 / .70

    or

    $_per_gallon_E0 * .70 = $_per_gallon_E100

    Bob Wilson
     
    #48 bwilson4web, Aug 29, 2013
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 3 of 3