Vote - Guess the new PiP EV range

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by Redpoint5, Mar 16, 2016.

?
  1. Less than 14 (23km)

    2 vote(s)
    2.8%
  2. 14-17 (23-27km)

    1 vote(s)
    1.4%
  3. 18-21 (28-34km)

    24 vote(s)
    33.8%
  4. 22-25 (35-40km)

    20 vote(s)
    28.2%
  5. Greater than 25 (40km)

    24 vote(s)
    33.8%
  1. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    my real time range is about 15 miles in good weather. so, i would be happy with 20. idk how that translates into epa numbers, 6 =8? 11=14? but i realize if toyota wants to sell a bunch in 50 states, it's going to have to be 25-30, in comparison to volt/fusion/cmax et al.

    it doesn't have to be as much as them, because it's a prius at the end of the day.
     
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  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It also allows better control in conditioning the battery during charging. Though Nissan seems to be doing okay with air flow in cooling their much larger pack now.

    Perhaps they could combine two different pack types. A large capacity pack in the cargo area with the current Li-ion pack under the seat of the hybrid. The hybrid's pack would likely have a higher power density than the chemistry of the plug in traction pack. It could be a buffer for regen energy, or just go whole hog and put a super cap under the seat.
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i doubt toyota will need any special cooling to add 50-100% more range.
     
  4. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    Realistically, I wouldn't buy a gen 2 plugin unless it has at least 30 real world EV mile range. I'm fine with gas MPG taking a few miles hit due to added weight. For example, If EV range is 30 miles and gas MPG is rated at 50 city, during a 40 mile trip, I would get 200mpg total. I'm totally fine with that. If EV range is 20 miles and the ICE is rated at 56 city, during a 40 mile trip, I would get 112mpg total. I'm not fine with that. The options would also has to match the regular Prius too, none of that plugins don't have LKA because it would cut the MPG because of added weight crap.
     
  5. Rebound

    Rebound Senior Member

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    The Prius battery has one fan. The Plug-in Prius battery has two fans. I think it's the discharge and charging that creates heat. The Prius has a very small charger -- about 12A 220V. Most EV's have double that.

    When the Prius discharges, it cuts off at 61 MPG and high torque. So this also limits heat, compared to a Tesla or any EV that can go 75 MPH on electricity. I'm sure there are numbers for this, like how many Amp-hours of charge/discharge that the battery uses, but it's a lot lower than the EV's or the Volt.
     
  6. Reagle

    Reagle Junior Member

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    I am guessing whatever size pack is needed for full $7500 tax credit- that would make the car very much price competitive. Well, and in my case it better be close to 30 miles, since that's what I need :)
     
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  7. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    kind of early to say 1 way or another how the new air cooled packs will do long term. If you DC Quick Charge on a 110 degree f summer day with only air cooling - then you won't get a hot pack very cooled via hot air.

    As for our range guessing? We talking 35mph flat ground? .... 65mph mixed terrain / temperatures? I think that this survey / guess needs to kind of set forth the assumptions.
     
    #87 hill, Mar 20, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2016
  8. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

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    The minimum battery capacity that qualifies for the full $7500 tax credit is 16 kWh, which is the size of the original Chevy Volt. That car had a 35 mile range. The current PiP has a 4.4 kWh battery, so it would have to increase in capacity by almost 4x to get the full rebate.

    All cooling is ultimately air cooled. Liquid has a much higher heat capacity, so it's temperature is more stable compared to air. The liquid still has to go through a liquid to air heat exchanger (radiator) to cool.

    The assumption set forth was the EPA rating, meaning the same criteria used to derive all of the other EPA range estimates for vehicles.
     
  9. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    I know nothing about the PiP but I can almost guarantee you that something will be missing. If I had to guess, it'll be the moonroof (since LDA w/ SA is part of TSS-P). It's the easiest to remove and weighs 10kg (According to toyota.jp). It also helps lower the centre of gravity (since I doubt the battery will be under the rear seat so it'll already have a higher centre of gravity than the Gen 4.

    However, I'm hoping that, unlike the Gen 3, they'll maybe compensate with something else.
     
  10. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

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    There is an economic principle that says individuals are often poor at estimation, but taking an average of all estimates from individuals results in a close approximation of the actual value. I wanted to see how well this translates into speculation about something that not much is known.

    The huge flaw in this data is that it's impossible to quantify greater than 25 miles, or less than 14. Perhaps I should have included more options. At any rate, I made an assumption of what the average might have been for the low and high options and came up with an average estimate of 24 miles of range.

    I'll be pleased if the new PiP gets near 24 miles of range.
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    PHEVs are skipping on the DC quick charge option for cost, and it isn't a need to make the car work for some buyer situations as with a BEV. PHEV batteries likely also have a more generous SOC buffer.

    Water has a higher heat capacity and transfer rate. Even with an ultimate air heat transfer, the heat of the pack will be drawn off quicker.
    Air and liquid systems can also make use of A/C or heat pump loops to aid in cooling. Ford and Honda hybrids with the cylinderical cells had an A/C loop for cooling.
     
  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    I have no basis of estimate so I SWAGed it. I'm still bothered that the transaxle oil pump is still engine driven in the P610. But if the ATF coolant loop got a small pump, problem solved.

    Bob Wilson
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I wouldn't sweat it. The HSD transaxle isn't a true automatic in physical operation; it's a manual. An automatic needs its fluid to also work as a hydraulic one in addition to a lube in order to operate clutches and perform shifts. It is that performance that gets degraded by too hot fluid. Like a manual transmission, the transaxle just needs the fluid for lubrication. Toyota used ATF in it simply because it is cheaper and simpler to use something already on hand. Older manuals used to just use motor oil.
     
  14. mozdzen

    mozdzen Active Member

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    No idea what the range will be, but if it is less than double or kicks out of EV mode with moderate acceleration like my current PiP, then I won't upgrade my PiP gen 1.
     
  15. inferno

    inferno Senior Member

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    Before the official reveal I actually predict 25 to 30 miles ev contrary to my vote in another thread.

    Here's why:
    • Batteries can be more dense now.
    • New Prius layout may allow more placement.
    • PiP battery is 4.4 and only usable 3.6 for 11 miles of range. I'd say with density and placement they won't double the size of the battery, but will be able to fit 8.8 and make 8.4 kwh usable. That's 233% more so what's the number?
      • 25.663 miles...with same amount of trunk space as current PiP.
    Now I saw "leaked" reports stating 30 miles EV - don't know if this is the Japanese cycle or what. But My guess is indeed, we should see at least 25 miles ev from the epa cycle, and probably 30 miles + from drivers :p How about that? I'm upgrading my PiPif this is true and is 56 combined mpg as well :p
     
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  16. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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  17. mozdzen

    mozdzen Active Member

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    30-35 miles of range would do it for me. 9-10 kwh useable. But I need a little more power delivery to go with that range.
     
  18. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    How many are willing to pay that cost and willing sacrifice that physical space?

    Toyota will strive to achieve a balance, something like 50km (Japan estimate) is a reasonable expectation. That capacity translating to real-world 22'ish here would be nice for ordinary consumers.

    There will naturally be disappointment & backlash from enthusiasts who's interest is pushing boundries. But what difference does their opinion actually make? They won't be the targeted buyers anyway. They won't be contributing to the sales goal. They aren't even interested in choices for the masses.

    Everyone would like more. That's in our nature. But realistically, that isn't how we (as mainstream consumers) make purchase decisions.
     
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  19. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    Look, other than the Chevy Volt, i can't find any phv with > 20 miles ev and a solid 40 mpg; Compare Side-by-Side

     
  20. inferno

    inferno Senior Member

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    Yes, but if Toyota wants to push an industry (and not in the Mirai direction...), now is the time to do so.

    Remember, we went from 25mpg cars to something shown to be 42mpg+ with the Prius. Now we're talking 50 mpg.

    If Toyota can deliver higher kWh-to-mile ratio and higher mpg we have a winner, especially if they are able to double the range (at least) and make it the same price (and wouldn't there be more fed tax credit then?)
     
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