VW Faces $17B Fine for Emissions Scam

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by Jeff N, Sep 18, 2015.

  1. frodoz737

    frodoz737 Top Wrench

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    I am not going to defend VW, Ford, GM, ect...or even Toyota when they get caught doing whatever. They have all done/do something wrong. I bought a TDI before the Prius and even though the "core engine" is great, the rest of the car/s is/are POS. Now I have 3 Toyotas because they are not...presently and relatively speaking that is. 500,000 cars since 2008 belching a little more is nothing compared to all the older and out of tune gassers and diesels driving out there...especially and including Government vehicles...in addition to the industrial pollution being puked. All this uproar about cheating the smog test is just a BS excuse to bash them. You don't need an excuse...VW just makes crappy cars.
     
    #61 frodoz737, Sep 19, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2015
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  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    well, we've been bashing them for poor quality for quite awhile, but now, there's some real meat on the bone.
     
  3. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    Whatever you do, don't mention the war.
     
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  4. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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  5. Grus

    Grus Member

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    There are published research papers comparing in-use operating emissions to EU approval cycle (NEDC) in recent years, like:
    Recent evidence concerning higher NOx emissions from passenger cars and light duty vehicles @UK
    Real-driving emissions from cars and light commercial vehicles -- Results from 13 years remote sensing at Zurich/CH
    The NOx from diesels always become "outstanding", no matter Euro 3 or Euro 5.
    And there is a recent report done by ICCT and ADAC on Euro 6 diesels:
    NOx control technologies for Euro 6 Diesel passenger cars
    The result is still "interesting".

    Normally, researchers were talking about the NEDC cycle is too ideal and stable,
    and I think most of them never though of the "defeat devices" thing.
    And I'm not hinting some manufacturer is doing the same "defeat devices" thing in Europe,
    because passing NEDC test cycle is legally enough to sell.

    The US regulations are stricter, both the limitation numbers and the test cycles.
    In general, the European diesels' emissions control devices need to be upgraded when importing to US.
    A recent research report sponsored by ICCT came out last year:
    In-Use Emissions Testing of Light-Duty Diesel Vehicles in the United States
    Some testing figures for NOx were still high, I guess that may caused some attentions to the administration.

    Not exactly. EPA did mention MY2012-2015 Passat in its letter to VW, although I am not sure if those Passat were equipped with SCR.
     
    #65 Grus, Sep 19, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
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  6. Blizzard_Persona

    Blizzard_Persona Senior Member

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    Out of interest due to this thread and the breaking news and partially because I've always been intrigued by the TDI's I called my local vw dealership and inquired about the recall....

    Granted I spoke with a salesman but he seemed very knowledgable:

    Q-I asked can the 2015 TDI's still be sold?
    A-Yes, not an issue.

    Q-What about the massive recall?
    A-VW will be eventually reflashing all the TDI's and that's all that's needed..

    Q-will the reflash affect the vehicles efficiency and or power?
    A- (he hesitated but at least was honest) That we do not know yet..

    He further went on to state that the recall and EPA rules only apply to CA And other carb states that have stricter EPA rules??? He also said PA is exempt from emissions testing on diesel vehicles so it doesn't really affect us here..... Well except for the 40x more pollution spewing...????

    Anyone have any input on above? Is a simple reflash really all that's needed and if so will it kill the good mpg, etc, or is a whole UREA system needed?
     
    #66 Blizzard_Persona, Sep 19, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
  7. JimN

    JimN Let the games begin!

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    Time for the diesel owners to switch to biodiesel.
     
  8. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Yea, "clean" diesel.
     
  9. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    Funny that 17B comes almost to 35,000$ per ca
     
  10. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    V dub just removed the "clean" in clean diesel.
     
  11. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    I like following this issue from the "how did it come about" question? VW will never reveal the true story, but the top two possibilities are:

    1) The highest levels of management were aware the ECU could detect when in an emissions test mode and directed engineering to do so. They convinced themselves it was within the interest of the organization to "optimize" vehicle performance for this detected condition.

    2) Someone at a technical level was rewarded for "solving" the emissions vs. performance tradeoffs and then ordered full steam ahead without letting the higher bosses know the deep details. This is often the case with bosses who only want to hear good news or consider anyone pointing out integrity issues as troublemakers (been there and know exactly how that works).

    The most important engineering technicality is the invention or the discovery the ECU could detect emissions testing. The is software you have to perform lots of testing and debugging to make sure it works just as reliably as running the engine....since that is what ECUs does. There was most definitely some core of engineers quite bothered by this, but unable to affect the higher management's decision to go with it. All I know for sure is some low level goat will be blamed and some corporate officer will be untouched.
     
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  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    maybe they don't have a whistleblowers law, like us.

    i have to wonder what competitive diesel mfg.'s, who followed the rules think of all this.
     
  13. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Even if they did, it really does not work. Trying to explain complicated engineering tradeoffs to lawyers, prosecutors, and juries is a totally lost cause. How does a whisleblower explain that setting software parameter GMXSV to 14.2356 instead of under 13.7645 is violating FAR Clause 14.2, Subsection 6, Paragraph 3.2?

    Answer-You can't.
     
  14. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    Not when there's potentially $17B at stake. Buh-leeeve me the lawyers will make it make sense/cents. ;)

    Is there a pot all ready going on when the first class action phishing begins?:p
     
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    this is a byproduct of believing what the computer tells you instead of checking yourself.

    i wonder how the west virginia university researchers figured it out?
     
  16. Blizzard_Persona

    Blizzard_Persona Senior Member

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    Anybody have any input on my post / questions above?? Post #64..

    Thx.
     
  17. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    The salesman's lips were moving, so we know he was lying.
     
  18. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I don't think a reflash of ECU would do it. Even if it does, it may consume a lot more Urea and refill interval may have to be revised.
     
  19. Grus

    Grus Member

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    The ICCT's press statement came out
    the tested VW Jetta uses LNT
    VW Passat & BMW X5 use SCR (need Urea)
     
    #79 Grus, Sep 20, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2015
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  20. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    And that's the problem, it's mainly the LNT cars that are affected. You cant inject more urea in a car that doesn't use it to begin with. I am so not missing that POS.

    I'm a member of Fred's TDI and there are guys over there saying that dealer's contacted them saying there's a stop sale on TDIs period until further notice. I would imagine that's all, except pre CR engines.
     
    #80 El Dobro, Sep 20, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2015
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