VW Faces $17B Fine for Emissions Scam

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by Jeff N, Sep 18, 2015.

  1. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    just saw my first audi e tron ad, they sure shifted gears quickly. and they dissed the prius in the process. methinks toyota should go on the diesel attack.
     
  2. Blizzard_Persona

    Blizzard_Persona Senior Member

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    I saw the ads as well during the terrible Eagles / Cowgirls game....

    The Etron looks really badass!!
     
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  3. Ursamajor

    Ursamajor Member

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    I'm on the board of a company that makes an aftermarket telematics device that plugs into the OBD-II port. Our CTO, who's Michigan based and interacts with all of the OEMs through his consulting business, said this comes as no surprise; a Toyota homologation guy he's worked with was telling him about VW playing these games in 2004.

    On a more personal note, this sucks. I'm transferring my Volt lease on Thursday, I planned to drive my 2012 JSW TDI (manual, fun to drive) until early next year when the 2nd gen Volt and new Prius come out. I'm not especially excited about spewing 40x NOx limits, and I don't know if VW will be able to fix this via reflashing; I guess I'll find out soon enough. Even if they can I assume that mileage and performance will suffer (possibly reliability as well, though I won't keep the car long enough to find out). There are a lot of guys at tdiclub.com who plan on avoiding the dealer with out of warranty cars; my state has no emissions testing, just safety, but I have no interest in driving the thing if it's polluting that badly.
     
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  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Audi has been playing around with the e-trons for the past 5 years or so. I think these are just the first ones being offered for sale.
     
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    mmm, quite a coincidence. if i were toyota, i would take bob wilsons post #103 vdub vroom vroom ad and play it back on network telly, if it were legal.
     
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  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    It can't be fixed by a software patch. The NOx converter needs more HC than diesel post combustion can provide and there is no HC converter as part of the current converter design. Fixing the NOx simply fails the HC limits.

    So what will the owners do when the EPA fines them directly for having a non-compliant car? This is a Federal standard and state government has no standing.

    Bob Wilson
     
  7. Ursamajor

    Ursamajor Member

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    What do you anticipate VW will do, as it's been instructed to "fix" the problem? SCR retrofit? Buyback?
     
  8. LDB

    LDB Member

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    In an ideal world, yes. I'm sure the several hundred thousand employees working for dealers, parts distributors and various others who had nothing to do with the situation will agree completely when they are given their pink slips.
     
  9. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    will 18b send vdub belly up?
     
  10. HGS

    HGS Member

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    18 billion is only about $56 per American. I want more money for breathing dirty air. But, in the end, don't "they" always cut a deal. Are they really going to pay out 18B cash all at once, or ever?
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    It won't be $18B because we don't know what the class actions will do. If VW walks away from the USA market, they still have the rest of the world.

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. HGS

    HGS Member

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    VW CEO makes statement: “I personally am deeply sorry that we have broken the trust of our customers and the public,” Mr. Winterkorn

    What he meant to say is, "we are sorry we got caught".

    image.jpg
     
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  13. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    I highly doubt the fines will be anywhere close to $18 billion.

    VW doesn't sell that many vehicles in the US (example numbers at August 2015: Big Numbers For Big Vehicles Edition and USA Auto Sales Brand Rankings - December 2014 & Year End - GOOD CAR BAD CAR) compared to the large players. But, their global footprint is HUGE.

    VW U.S. chief sees ‘limited growth' until new SUVs arrive| Reuters says
    "Volkswagen brand sales in the United States have been sliding since 2012, when they reached nearly 440,000 vehicles. U.S. sales fell to 367,000 vehicles last year and are down another 4 percent this year. The VW brand sold almost 570,000 vehicles in 1970, its U.S. peak year...."

    Now much new at VW's Emissions Cheating Found by Curious Clean-Air Group - Bloomberg Business other than the mention of a San Diego to Seattle road trip.
     
    #133 cwerdna, Sep 20, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2015
  14. DtEW

    DtEW Active Member

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    1) It's impossible to put a value on the cost of damage for each American. You can't prove it, and VW lawyers aren't just going to roll over. Any such fine based on supposed "actual" damages will be (rightfully) thrown out of court at the slightest challenge.

    2) The gov't has to balance the fine between maintaining VW's solvency (putting VW into bankruptcy is not just counter-productive to the aims of protecting the general economy, but also to the aim of getting VW to fix/patch these non-compliant vehicles) and yet making an example of them so that nobody else will dare to resort to these sort of willful shenanigans.

    3) VW will necessarily appeal any fines, and I predict the end result to be only a fraction of the maximum, perhaps between 1 to 3 billion dollars.

    4) This will spell the end of VW/Audi's diesel efforts in the US, as this will be an unrecoverable tarnishing of their diesel technology, which they have literally and audaciously called "clean diesel". What this will do for BMW* and MB's efforts is uncertain. It probably won't affect American efforts much, as a good proportion of their target market don't seem to give a sh*t about environmental soundness (see oversized "professional" trucks and @sshats "rolling coal").

    * - Lest we forget in all of VW's dishonesty... kudos should be given to BMW, who seems to worked their technical wizardry and achieved sound compliance with these environmental regulations in varying driving conditions.

    5) The interesting thing to watch at this point is what happens to VW in the EU, in which diesel is much more popular. Chances are, the same shenanigans are being pulled. Germany might have vested interests in VW... but other members of EU? Lots of VW competitors.
     
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    In 1985, General Electric was banned from Federal contracts because two employees and their supervisor cheated on their time cards. It was later limited to GE Space Division that I worked for so we could not win an Army contract for automated test systems. It eventually led to GE Space Division being sold to Lockheed-Martin and the evaporation of the automated test equipment business I worked on. BUT I never felt anything beyond a momentary angst when I left GE.

    The same no doubt exists inside VW. I learned that the same the moral ambiguity that led three GE employees to cheat was symptomatic of a wider rot in GE Space Division. We've already seen more than one PriusChat members report poor VW quality. This is the real problem . . . a willingness to compromise good engineering for a cheat.

    I have nothing but fond memories of a 1966 VW MicroBus that took me from Coffeyville KS to LA via Fond du Loc WI, Cheyenne WY, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, and Los Padres. Uncounted trips from DC to Rehobath, I squeezed every bit of life from that 6 V, MicroBus. But VW was never able to make it last.

    The good engineers and employees of VW will make out nicely. They will find jobs where their skills and abilities will soon be realized. Many of the rest will go to other jobs, no better or worse than working for VW. But the VW crooks will rejoin the worker pool and poison someone else. Worse, their moral terpitude is invisible to HR and no doubt these poison pills will find a new 'seat'.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  16. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ....cool screen capture from the ipad
     
  17. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    That their employers were a bunch of liers that caused it. (they have now admitted it)

    Or maybe we should just let VW do what the hell they want cos they employ people?

    There's definitely a different mentality in Germany, there has to be, as saying sorry after such synical maninulation is just like you say "sorry we got caught".

    Turns out 'optomising' engine controls is perfectly legal in the EU emission testing for manufacturers. VW have just done in the US what they've been getting away with in the EU;

    http://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publications/2014%20Mind%20the%20Gap_T%26E%20Briefing_FINAL.pdf

    The link is a UK official report from 2014 that is completely aware of the issue but finding resistance from the EU, mainly Germany, who wish to protect their diesel biased motor/auto industry.
     
    #137 GrumpyCabbie, Sep 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2015
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  18. Grus

    Grus Member

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    I think the revised Volkswagen Law still stipulates that the votings on major shareholder meeting resolutions require 80% agreement. and State of Lower Saxony owns 20% of the voting rights, after Porsche Automobil Holding SE's 50.73%.
    Germany Wins EU Court Battle Over VW Law, Escapes Fines
    It won't bankrupt nor be controlled by other one.
     
  19. Blizzard_Persona

    Blizzard_Persona Senior Member

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    image.png

    VW sees billions wiped off market value after rigging claims - SF Gate
    VW sees billions wiped off market value after rigging claims - SFGate

    Middle of the article states EPA says the cars are still legal to sell and operate and pose no immediate risk.....
     
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