Wal-Mart- Yes or No?

Punkinann · May 15, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eyeguy13 @ May 13 2006, 07:50 PM) [snapback]254993[/snapback]</div>

Local merchants first. On-line second. Target if I have to go big box chain but try to stay away from it.
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I finally figured out that with the increase in gas prices, any savings from Target are outweighed by the cost and time of driving there--versus walking one block to my neighborhood drugstore.

I've started to buy more household supplies online. With free shipping, it's cheaper than Target, and so much more convenient to have merchandise delivered to me, instead of having to go out and pick it up myself.

FYI, amazon.com if cheaper than drugstore.com for most things.

efusco · May 15, 2006

I live in the Ozarks, about 2 hours from corporate headquarts of Wal-mart. My first Wal-mart exposure was at the age of 10 (1976) when I moved to Mtn. Home, Arkansas. It was Wal-mart #11.

My mother has worked as a pharmacist for many years there and though disgruntled with some of the management stuff still worked there a long time.

My family and I have done the majority of our day to day shopping there for as long as I can remember. Wal-mart is a way of life in this part of the country.

Not until it expanded into the metropolises of the world did anyone start questioning their social interest and such. They're a huge target, and thus easy to hit.

But in classic Ayn Rand fashion they've done what it takes to be successful. The provide a tremendous number of jobs, and save individuals a lot of money. Those of us on upper middle class incomes can talk about how 'little' is actually saved and can wax poetic about social injustices, but those on low or fixed incomes don't have that luxury.

Like Squidward I HATE the shopping experience there. When I go I go before 8am or after 8pm when possible. If I MUST go there to get something in mid day I've pretty much gone in with my head down, get what I need, try to choke down the urge to kill the stupid people in the way, pay and get the heck out.

Anyway, I suspect that mom & pop stores are selling products of just as questionable history as those of Wal-mart...they may or may not know it, but just charge you more for them. I don't understand why folks are so caught up in this thing about Wal-mart other than for the fact that they're such a large and easy target.

larkinmj · May 15, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ May 15 2006, 02:35 AM) [snapback]255562[/snapback]</div>

My mother has worked as a pharmacist for many years there and though disgruntled with some of the management stuff still worked there a long time.
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As you are an enlightened person, I suspect that your Mom is as well, so I assume that she is not one of the Wal-Mart pharmacists that refuses to sell contraceptives. (My dad is also a pharmacist- they are the "pillers" of the community )

But in classic Ayn Rand fashion they've done what it takes to be successful. The provide a tremendous number of jobs, and save individuals a lot of money. Those of us on upper middle class incomes can talk about how 'little' is actually saved and can wax poetic about social injustices, but those on low or fixed incomes don't have that luxury.
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That is certainly a valid point. It is easy enough for those of us who can afford to buy our groceries at Whole Foods or our kids' clothing from small retailers to tell working people that they shouldn't buy from Wal-Mart. I would not say that to anyone who has to shop there out of necessity when there is not practical alternative. But I would counter that there are companies such as Costco that prove that a retailer can offer merchandise at low prices, while still paying their employees decent wages and providing benefits.

Anyway, I suspect that mom & pop stores are selling products of just as questionable history as those of Wal-mart...they may or may not know it, but just charge you more for them. I don't understand why folks are so caught up in this thing about Wal-mart other than for the fact that they're such a large and easy target.
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I won't go into detail about all the egregious stuff that Wal-Mart does- it would make for a very long post. A good source of info on this is walmartwatch.com. Why has Wal-Mart become a target (not a "Target") in particular, when lot of big corporations do bad things? Well, for one thing, they are particularly aggressive in moving into communities and putting smaller stores out of business- regardless of local opposition. Where you live, they might be regarded as more of a part of the community, but when they meet with opposition in other communities, they will resort to whatever measures they deem necessary (including getting local ordinances changed) to overcome it. They exploit people that work for them- low wages, poor benefits, union busting- not to mention the instances of employees locked in stores overnight because their shifts end at 1 a.m., and Wal-Mart is so afraid of employee theft that they wouldn't allow the doors to be unlocked at night.
Wal-Mart deliberately keeps employee hours just below the threshold where they have to provide benefits, and many of their employees cannot obtain health insurance. As a result, many of them have to sign up for Medicaid, and thus the taxpayers are subsidizing their low prices, whether we shop there or not. Many states are now trying to pass "Wal-Mart laws" as a result, which would require companies that employ over a certain number of people without company provided health insurance to contribute to the state's health plan.
Companies exist to make money- that's the reality. As consumers, I believe that it is our responsibility to consume in a way that minimizes exploitation of other people; in our communities and throughout the world. Wal-Mart is here to stay, but by exerting pressure on them we can at least hopefully get them to improve their behavior.
Also- one thing we can all do is to just consume less, period!

dbermanmd · May 15, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ May 15 2006, 10:04 AM) [snapback]255615[/snapback]</div>

As you are an enlightened person, I suspect that your Mom is as well, so I assume that she is not one of the Wal-Mart pharmacists that refuses to sell contraceptives. (My dad is also a pharmacist- they are the "pillers" of the community )
That is certainly a valid point. It is easy enough for those of us who can afford to buy our groceries at Whole Foods or our kids' clothing from small retailers to tell working people that they shouldn't buy from Wal-Mart. I would not say that to anyone who has to shop there out of necessity when there is not practical alternative. But I would counter that there are companies such as Costco that prove that a retailer can offer merchandise at low prices, while still paying their employees decent wages and providing benefits.
I won't go into detail about all the egregious stuff that Wal-Mart does- it would make for a very long post. A good source of info on this is walmartwatch.com. Why has Wal-Mart become a target (not a "Target") in particular, when lot of big corporations do bad things? Well, for one thing, they are particularly aggressive in moving into communities and putting smaller stores out of business- regardless of local opposition. Where you live, they might be regarded as more of a part of the community, but when they meet with opposition in other communities, they will resort to whatever measures they deem necessary (including getting local ordinances changed) to overcome it. They exploit people that work for them- low wages, poor benefits, union busting- not to mention the instances of employees locked in stores overnight because their shifts end at 1 a.m., and Wal-Mart is so afraid of employee theft that they wouldn't allow the doors to be unlocked at night.
Wal-Mart deliberately keeps employee hours just below the threshold where they have to provide benefits, and many of their employees cannot obtain health insurance. As a result, many of them have to sign up for Medicaid, and thus the taxpayers are subsidizing their low prices, whether we shop there or not. Many states are now trying to pass "Wal-Mart laws" as a result, which would require companies that employ over a certain number of people without company provided health insurance to contribute to the state's health plan.
Companies exist to make money- that's the reality. As consumers, I believe that it is our responsibility to consume in a way that minimizes exploitation of other people; in our communities and throughout the world. Wal-Mart is here to stay, but by exerting pressure on them we can at least hopefully get them to improve their behavior.
Also- one thing we can all do is to just consume less, period!
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With 4.7% unemployment any of those abused or exploited WalMart employees will have no trouble finding other employment if they found it so oppressive there. WalMart is above the national average in insuring their workers. They generate tremendous amounts of tax revenue for local, state, and federal spenders. They hold down the ravages of inflation, make available technology and goods and services to the masses, the drive the cost of living down for all - one of the biggest problems they have are the unions like the food unions - they know that WalMart is the countries second (maybe largest by now) seller of food because they do it less expensively. The banks dont want WalMart allowed to do banking functions for that reason alone.

Yes they have made mistakes - like we all have. As long as they correct them that is fine. Imagine all the mistakes our government makes all day with the IRS, Social Security - things really important to us. I would focus your time on addressing things like Flat Tax, Privatizing Social Security - WalMart is not hurting you - take on causes that directly will affect you.

States that try to legislate special "WalMart" laws like forcing them to buy insurance for all employees etc are making a huge mistake - legally and if that does not hold up, then from the loss of jobs they will suffer when WalMart scales back in their state.

From my perspective - let the marketplace work its wonders. If people dont want to shop there - then dont. If people dont want to work there - then dont. I dont want a few ding dongs preventing them from competing in my marketplace. They should not be held to different standards than anyone else.

efusco · May 15, 2006

No one is forced to work at Wal-mart. If enough were dissatisfied they can and would leave.

If they couldn't fine employment they'd be on medicaid anyway.

The fact that Wal-mart keeps prices so low is good for the economy as it forces others to sell at fair prices to keep competative.

I don't deny that they may do some things that are "bad", but they've done a lot of good. Capitalism is what it is. You guys that won't shop there are making capitalism work...I applaud that. You're standing up for what you see as wrong or unfair and spreading that evangelism. I'm here to learn, but, at this point, I see Wal-mart as a fair and reasonable business that's biggest crime is its success.

Finally, the pharmacists who won't sell contraceptives comment/question is irrelevant. My mom is a Catholic and, AFAIK, has never refused to fill any legitimate prescription. But there are many non-Wal-mart pharmacies that won't sell morning-after pills and such...in fact I'd bet that, on a percentage basis, it's more likely that a pharmacist at a private pharmacy wouldn't fill such a script than a Wal-mart one would. Wal-mart's pharmacy volume is so high and being as it's a corporate pharmacy I don't think they generally feel like they have as much freedom to make and enforce 'moral' decisions like that. The private pharmacy can pretty much do as he pleases and it's only his bottom line that will suffer.

keydiver · May 15, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ May 13 2006, 06:50 PM) [snapback]254904[/snapback]</div>

I am curious as to how many PC folks spend their money there.
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You forgot another option: "Yes, I shop there, because its the ONLY store in town. But, I HATE it everytime I go there."

Jupiter, FL has done everything they could to stall Target opening here, so I think they finally gave up. KMart gave up a few years ago, and closed their doors.

dbermanmd · May 15, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ May 15 2006, 11:01 AM) [snapback]255659[/snapback]</div>

No one is forced to work at Wal-mart. If enough were dissatisfied they can and would leave.

If they couldn't fine employment they'd be on medicaid anyway.

The fact that Wal-mart keeps prices so low is good for the economy as it forces others to sell at fair prices to keep competative.

I don't deny that they may do some things that are "bad", but they've done a lot of good. Capitalism is what it is. You guys that won't shop there are making capitalism work...I applaud that. You're standing up for what you see as wrong or unfair and spreading that evangelism. I'm here to learn, but, at this point, I see Wal-mart as a fair and reasonable business that's biggest crime is its success.

Finally, the pharmacists who won't sell contraceptives comment/question is irrelevant. My mom is a Catholic and, AFAIK, has never refused to fill any legitimate prescription. But there are many non-Wal-mart pharmacies that won't sell morning-after pills and such...in fact I'd bet that, on a percentage basis, it's more likely that a pharmacist at a private pharmacy wouldn't fill such a script than a Wal-mart one would. Wal-mart's pharmacy volume is so high and being as it's a corporate pharmacy I don't think they generally feel like they have as much freedom to make and enforce 'moral' decisions like that. The private pharmacy can pretty much do as he pleases and it's only his bottom line that will suffer.
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Color me smiling. We agree totally. WalMart is only being targeted because of its success. The same fold that hate them probably also drink Coke and the such. I think there is an "anti" website for each and every successful American corporation.

In a way WalMart spreads significant good in the countries it enters. It exposses them to the real life issues of capitalism and how it can benefit the individual. It gives locals jobs and pride in working. It gives them access to goods and services they were probably never ever able to obtain. It gives them a few extra bucks in their pocket to spend elsewhere like education. It spreads a "middle class" - kind of like what is happening in India now.

Curious how we ended up winning the Vietnam War - how's that for a sidebar. Now that they are going to have their application for MFN trading status approved by us. Amazing how powerful capitalism and its coat tail democracy are.

larkinmj · May 15, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ May 15 2006, 11:01 AM) [snapback]255659[/snapback]</div>

No one is forced to work at Wal-mart. If enough were dissatisfied they can and would leave.

If they couldn't fine employment they'd be on medicaid anyway.
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The reality is, many people are "forced" to work where they do- because in some places, there are just not many employment options. Wal-Mart tends to stay out of urban areas, and many of their stores are in the exurbs or rural areas. When they do come into a town, they put the existing retail stores out of business. So while we don't have slave labor (in the US, anyway), there are certainly many people working at Wal-Mart because the choice is working there or not working. People on this thread have commented that, where they live, Wal-Mart is the only place to shop. Well, that would imply that it's the only place to work. Now a purely market-driven philosophy would say that if the employee has no choices, there is no incentive to offer him better wages or benefits. That is not a justification for taking advantage of the worker's situation.

Finally, the pharmacists who won't sell contraceptives comment/question is irrelevant. My mom is a Catholic and, AFAIK, has never refused to fill any legitimate prescription. But there are many non-Wal-mart pharmacies that won't sell morning-after pills and such...in fact I'd bet that, on a percentage basis, it's more likely that a pharmacist at a private pharmacy wouldn't fill such a script than a Wal-mart one would. Wal-mart's pharmacy volume is so high and being as it's a corporate pharmacy I don't think they generally feel like they have as much freedom to make and enforce 'moral' decisions like that. The private pharmacy can pretty much do as he pleases and it's only his bottom line that will suffer.
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Until a few months ago, Wal-Mart only sold Plan B in two states- Illinois, because state law required it, and Massachusetts, which sued them earlier this year. As a physician, you know that Plan B is only guaranteed by the FDA to be safe and effective if taken within 72 hours after intercourse. And, as noted, many Wal-Mart stores aren't located within a short distance of other pharmacies. While Wal-Mart caved under pressure and does now stock Plan B in all of its pharmacies, they still have the policy that individual pharmacists who object to dispensing it are not required to do so, but must refer the customer to another pharmacy (too bad if it's two hours away.)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ May 15 2006, 11:16 AM) [snapback]255669[/snapback]</div>

WalMart is only being targeted because of its success. The same fold that hate them probably also drink Coke and the such. I think there is an "anti" website for each and every successful American corporation.
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I don't drink Coke...nor snort it.

nyprius · May 15, 2006

It seems this conversation is missing about 80% of the problem, namely that systemic issues compel all firms, not just WMT, to negatively impact the environment, workers, communities, etc. Of course we should push companies to do a better job. But we should realize they can only get rid of about 20% of their negative impacts and remain in business. If we push them to get of rid of the other 80% everyone gets frustrated and little gets done. The better approach is to continue to push companies to improve AND push for system change. This is the most complex challenge facing humanity and business. But if we don't do it voluntarily, it will be done to us. No system at odds with reality and nature, as ours is massively, can endure. There are plenty of examples to prove this -- feudalism, slavery, communism.

WMT is playing by the rules of the game, and doing better than anyone at it. IF we con't like they're behavior, we must change the rules (ie: the economic and political systems that largely determine corporate behavior).

I just published an article on WMT that goes into this in more detail. It's available at www.globalsystemchange.com

Mystery Squid · May 15, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ May 15 2006, 12:14 PM) [snapback]255707[/snapback]</div>

The reality is, many people are "forced" to work where they do- because in some places, there are just not many employment options. Wal-Mart tends to stay out of urban areas, and many of their stores are in the exurbs or rural areas. When they do come into a town, they put the existing retail stores out of business. So while we don't have slave labor (in the US, anyway), there are certainly many people working at Wal-Mart because the choice is working there or not working. [/b]
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On this I must agree with the liberal, larkinmj.

Although no one is "forced" to work, I agree that in many one horse towns, employment choices are severly limited, and generally, the rank and file walmart employees don't really have the means to up and move somewhere else if they don't want to work there, and there are no other jobs available. It's sort of a quagmire made up of a series of unfortunate variables. Not so great when your only choices are: unemployment, relocation.

eyeguy13 · May 15, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 15 2006, 01:38 PM) [snapback]255802[/snapback]</div>

On this I must agree with the liberal, larkinmj.

Although no one is "forced" to work, I agree that in many one horse towns, employment choices are severly limited, and generally, the rank and file walmart employees don't really have the means to up and move somewhere else if they don't want to work there, and there are no other jobs available. It's sort of a quagmire made up of a series of unfortunate variables. Not so great when your only choices are: unemployment, relocation.

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Crap, now I have to agree with the conservative Squid! Which in turn means I'm agreeing with the liberal, larkinmj, so I'm back at being a liberal again! Whew, that worked out well.

larkinmj · May 15, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eyeguy13 @ May 15 2006, 05:46 PM) [snapback]255918[/snapback]</div>

Crap, now I have to agree with the conservative Squid! Which in turn means I'm agreeing with the liberal, larkinmj, so I'm back at being a liberal again! Whew, that worked out well.
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Yeah, when I looked over at MS's post, it looked like Dick Cheney was agreeing with me! I nearly had a heart attack!

eyeguy13 · May 15, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ May 15 2006, 08:17 PM) [snapback]256010[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, when I looked over at MS's post, it looked like Dick Cheney was agreeing with me! I nearly had a heart attack!
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:lol:

RonH · May 16, 2006

Looks like piling on walmart has abated somewhat. But here are my two cents:

- the benefits of mom & pop stores are an american myth right up there with small farms and every vote counts. M&P stores routinely violate child labor laws and provide fewer benefits than your average Big Corp macjob.

- everybody knows the shortcomings of american corporation short term planning. But does anyone believe that the long term goal of walmart is to drive its workers and suppliers into poverty? Who would they sell to then? Oh, that's right they'll just take their ill-gotten gain and buy Australia.

- I've read that the fastest, bestest responder (govt, ngo, whatever) in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast was Walmart? Just a PR ploy? A plan to capture 100% of the retail market?

Wal-Mart- Yes or No?

Wal-Mart- Yes or No?

Yes

No- out of principle, I will not give them my money

No- but it has nothing to do with social justice; I just don't like their cheap crap

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Wal-Mart- Yes or No?

Wal-Mart- Yes or No?

Yes

No- out of principle, I will not give them my money

No- but it has nothing to do with social justice; I just don't like their cheap crap

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