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Warning lights but can't figure out the root cause

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by FirstFlight, Jul 31, 2012.

  1. FirstFlight

    FirstFlight Member

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    I drove my 2005 Prius 2 hours and parked it for 5 hours. No problems on the trip down. I got back in it and it started up just fine. I was sitting in the parking lot with my foot on the brake (hadn't moved yet) and the following occurred:

    The brake pedal seemed to push back on my foot
    The red exclamation point illuminated
    The yellow exclamation point illuminated
    The ABS light illuminated
    The VSC light illuminated
    The red parking brake light illuminated (not shown) IMAGE_207.jpg

    All of these lights point to the skid ECU. It seems like my skid ECU is toast or something called the ABS & BA & TRAC & VSC Actuator is an issue (never heard of it but I see it connected to the skid ECU). I did a visual check of what I could and everything seemed in order. I pulled a bunch of fuses and I didn't notice any that were blown. (I didn't pull them all but will tomorrow)

    After not finding anything, I drove back home. As expected, I had no regen but the bigger problem was that I had no power assist on the brakes. A few times I actually did skid and the car brakes really bad without regen or power assist. If it was raining or snowing I could definitely see a hazardous situation.

    I'm kind of at a loss here. Tomorrow I'll pull the kick panel down and see if the skid ECU is getting power but I can't think of anything else that would cause this situation. Any other ideas?
     
  2. nh7o

    nh7o Off grid since 1980

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    After the car has sat for a bit, what happens when you put your foot on the brake pedal before pushing the On switch? Do you hear the brake system pressurizing with the usual buzz sound?

    Also, someone will always say "check 12V battery", so I'll go ahead and say it now. There are DTC's set so a scan tool that can read them would help.
     
  3. FirstFlight

    FirstFlight Member

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    The car started and ran fine for about 45 seconds to 1 minute. I can't remember if I just put my foot on the brake or attempted to shift into drive when the problem happened. On my two hour trip back home I stopped a couple of times and everything was normal, except the issues I listed in my original post.
    I'll have to check this in the morning. I normally hear it but I didn't take notice to it today.

    I have zero codes. That was the first thing I checked, which is why I'm really confused. I would have thought for sure that one or more of those fault lights would create a fault code.

    I don't know how the communications work on the Prius but I do similar work in my career field. Just a guess but if the other ECU's don't poll the skid ECU and the skid ECU fails completely, there will be no way to set a code. If the other ECU's look for data or some sort of heartbeat signal then one of the other ECU's should have reported a failure.

    Like I said, no codes and the 12V battery appears to be working just fine.
     
  4. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    on the bright side this problem is being handled better by you & PriusChat compared to a dealer who'd just start guessing on replacing expensive stuff and over-charging you for it. I'm looking forward to other experts on here seeing this thread and posting their thoughts... It's a curious problem you have...
     
  5. jdcollins5

    jdcollins5 Senior Member

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    Another quick check would be to check your brake fluid level in the reservoir.
     
  6. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    I guarantee that skid control ECU DTC are present if you see all those warning lights on, so if you cannot retrieve DTC you should discard whatever device you are using that cannot report the codes.

    The brake actuator is mounted on the firewall and can be seen after you remove the cowl that houses the windshield wiper motor assembly. It has numerous hydraulic lines running to it and the replacement process requires bleeding air bubbles out, which cannot be done without access to Toyota Techstream or equivalent since the solenoids in that unit need to be manually activated.

    Since your car's braking system is obviously impaired and you do not have the proper equipment to deal with it, I suggest you have the car towed to your local Toyota dealer for diagnosis and repair. Good luck.
     
  7. FirstFlight

    FirstFlight Member

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    I have a Scangauge II. It seems to be functioning just fine as everything is operational on it. It reported a DTC last week for the catalytic converter. Maybe it can no longer read the DTC's, not sure yet.
     
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  8. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    A generic OBD-II tool like ScanGauge is good only for reading engine ECU DTC and, if you are lucky, hybrid vehicle ECU DTC. It will not read DTC from other important ECUs such as skid control, transmission control, traction battery, body, etc.
     
  9. FirstFlight

    FirstFlight Member

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    I understand that but I'm not going to discard it. Anyhow, I've been working on a CAN diagnostic tool for use with a computer on the Gen II Prius. It wasn't ready for testing on the car yet and certainly not in this situation but I'm going to try it out today. I'll be checking my car in a few minutes and hopefully I can locate the problem.
     
  10. FirstFlight

    FirstFlight Member

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    The skid ECU isn't toast. The light for the traction control doesn't light until I unplug one of the connectors on the ECU.

    Whatever the normal noise is when you step on the brake before you start the car isn't normal anymore. IIRC, it lasted for a second or so normally. Now it clicks for less than 250mS. Not sure how to explain it but the noise isn't normal at all. I checked the master cylinder and it's at a normal level.

    Here are my questions:

    1. I know the noise emitted when you first step on the brake has to do with the brakes but what is it?

    2. Is there something electronic on the master cylinder I can check?

    3. When I press on the brake, there isn't any resistance until the pads/shoes are hitting the wheel. Would a defective master cylinder cause this type of problem? It kind of makes sense because the problem occurred with my foot resting on the brake and I hadn't moved the car yet.

    I'm not very knowledgeable on brakes so if there are any checks I can do that anyone can think of, please let me know. Bringing my car to the dealer is not an option.

    EDIT: Would the brake master stroke simulator cylinder assembly or the brake control power supply cause this type of problem?
     
  11. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    You are probably thinking about the brake pressure accumulator pump which runs from time to time when you depress the brake pedal.

    You need the skid control ECU DTC so that you will have a clue regarding the root cause of the problem.

    Prius does not have a typical brake master cylinder. The braking system upstream of the wheels is nothing like what you will find on a conventional vehicle.

    Given a failure of this nature and your lack of access to Techstream or the equivalent; taking your car to the Toyota dealer service department or an independent qualified to work on Toyota hybrids are your two reasonable alternatives, short of towing the car to the salvage yard and walking away.
     
  12. FirstFlight

    FirstFlight Member

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    Some more info if this helps anyone.

    I'm able to get that noise when you first step on the brake back to normal. I can do this by removing the ABS 2 relay. This is an assumption but it seems as if the master stroke assembly might be okay since it's connected to the ABS 1 relay. It seems as if the ABS & BA & TRAC & VSC Actuator could be an issue since the ABS 2 relay goes to it.

    Other pertinent information:

    The fail signal from the brake control power supply will go from ~1VDC to ~12VDC every 250mS. Not sure if this is normal or not but it was just an observation. All other signals appeared to be okay.

    The other strange thing is that it literally feels like I have no brake fluid. When I release the brake pedal it sounds like there is a vacuum coming from the brake pedal area. I can verify it's there but again, not sure if this is normal if the electrical portion of the braking system is inoperative.
     
  13. vincent1449p

    vincent1449p Active Member

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    The Skid Control ECU is on the KWP bus and SGII can't be configured to 9600 baud to read it. You can try to short Tc-CG to retrieve the blink code.

    Vincent
     
  14. josh2008

    josh2008 Active Member

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    Why not get the car scanned and report the DTC's so we can go from there? Until then, since were guessing, I think its the kanuter valve :D
     
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  15. FirstFlight

    FirstFlight Member

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    Because I can't afford it until Monday.
    That's a little dramatic.
    Great information, thanks. Is there a full list of codes? I can view data on the CAN. Is there anything there that's useful to diagnose this problem?
     
  16. vincent1449p

    vincent1449p Active Member

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    As I said, it is not on the CAN bus. From the blinking pattern (2 digits), you can get the corresponding DTC code (Cxxxx). It is the same as using the Toyota scantool but cheaper alternative.

    Vincent
     
  17. FirstFlight

    FirstFlight Member

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    Thanks for the help Vincent. First thing in the morning I'm going to try this and hopefully it gives me some useful information.
     
  18. nh7o

    nh7o Off grid since 1980

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    Is that so for the Gen II? The system diagram clearly shows the Skid Control ECU connected to the main CAN bus. From the Brake Control repair doc:

    The blink codes are available, so that is still the most immediate thing to do.
     
  19. FirstFlight

    FirstFlight Member

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    Yup, it's for a Gen II. I was confused about the comment regarding the CAN because of this:

    skid ecu w-CAN.JPG
     
  20. nh7o

    nh7o Off grid since 1980

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    The list of blink codes is long, so if you can get the blink code, we can go from there.

    (Inquiring minds want to know... )