Wasp venom seems to have "cured" knee pain

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Stevewoods, Oct 14, 2015.

  1. Stevewoods

    Stevewoods Senior Member

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    Based on some remarks in another thread, seems there is some interest in natural cures...so...

    I was hiking a week or so ago and while coming down a steep hill hyperextended my knee. It's been pretty painful, but slowly getting better. Couple of days ago, despite the knee pain I HAD to cut some brush on my property before our Seattle rainy season hits.

    Using my brush cutter (think of it as a extra-heavy-duty weed wacker), I accidentally smacked a yellow jacket burrow (they nest underground). I do wear a faceshield and hardhat, heavy boots, canvas shirt, gloves etc.

    But, I had neglected to tuck in the shirt. The little horrors flooded into the gap under the shirt and I think I got a dozen or more stings. all just around the waist line. Of course, it could have been worse.

    Didn't feel so hot, but just realized today, that my knee that hurt so much hasn't been hurting for the past day or so. Not a bit. No way it should be pain-free yet, but it is.

    Seems I had read about such things before, so I googled and, yep, seems that venom has been used for joint pains, etc.

    Not that I recommend this "cure," for the wrong person, it could be fatal. :(
     
  2. amm0bob

    amm0bob Permanently Junior...

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    I am allergic to wasp venom... I carry an epipen when out and about.
     
  3. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    I got stung a couple of days ago, right on the knuckle. The joint pain only increased for me. Still itchy, too.
     
  4. RRxing

    RRxing Senior Member

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    Correlation does not necessarily mean causation
     
  5. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    I'll stick with the un-natural cures, thanks just the same. :eek:

    I'm mildly allergic, and probably SHOULD be carrying an epipen.
     
  6. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

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    I wouldn't be minding as much that the little buggers venom or stings eventually reduced any pain. Being stung so many times would scare me to death so recovery would never happen.
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    A lot (if not most) modern medicines come from natural sources:

    The history of aspirin (also known as acetylsalicylic acid or ASA) and the medical use of it and related substances stretches back to antiquity, though pure ASA has only been manufactured and marketed since 1899.


    Medicines made from willow and other salicylate-rich plants appear in Egyptian pharonic pharmacology papyri [1] from the second millennium BC. Hippocrates referred to their use of salicylic tea to reduce fevers around 400 BC[citation needed], and were part of the pharmacopoeia of Western medicine in classical antiquity and the Middle Ages. Willow bark extract became recognized for its specific effects on fever, pain and inflammation in the mid-eighteenth century. Lewis and Clark allegedly used willow bark tea in 1803–1806 as a remedy for fever for members of the famous expedition. By the nineteenth century pharmacists were experimenting with and prescribing a variety of chemicals related to salicylic acid, the active component of willow extract.


    Source: History of aspirin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    But modern medicines go through a thorough study of purity (i.e., standard dose), efficacy (i.e., it works), and side effects (i.e., toxicity.) This is what separates medicine from food additives and other non-medical practices. Still, I have my own bee/wasp sting nostrum.

    One first freeze night, I harvested the last of our habanero peppers under a clear, cold, moon lit night. A bag, I knew they would not last long. So I decided to make habanero extract:
    [​IMG]
    • pour grain alcohol into blender (WARNING: fire hazard! *)
    • wear safety glasses and rubber gloves
    • puree mix holding everything securely
    • pour into a mason jar and put on a lid, store safely
    • let organic material settle, ~1-2 weeks
    • wear safety glasses and rubber gloves
    • decant clear liquid
    • wrap mason jar and pulp in plastic bag and put in trash
    The habanero extract is used by the drop to season beans and popcorn. Unlike other hot spices, it is free from the 'pepper' flavor, just pure heat. When cooked, the alcohol goes away with no vinegar after taste. The habanero popcorn is a favorite. It tastes good, no burning tongue, and then the heat accumulates and 'seasons the whole body' with an inner glow. Best of all, it does not exit the gut, no 'ring of fire.' But I discovered the extract can provide some pain-relief.

    A toothpick dipped in the extract and applied to the base of a broken tooth will initially fire off all the already firing pain nerves. Once the nerves become exhausted, there is relief and the ability to sleep.

    A year or so earlier, my wife and I were fond of spicy, bloody Mary, using the liquid in a commercial jar of jalapenos. But the juice ran out and we had this jar of jalapenos so I poured in some vodka. A couple of day's later, I made the bloody Mary and it was way too spicy. The ethanol had concentrated the capsaicin in ways not expected.

    Bob Wilson

    * - ethanol is a fire hazard and if there is spillage or leaking from the blender into the motor area, arcing at the brushes could ignite the assembly. I would recommend putting blender in sink and having fire protection handy.
     
    #7 bwilson4web, Oct 15, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
  8. MJFrog

    MJFrog Active Member

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    Sounds good, but why waste a perfectly good mason jar? Thoroughly rinse, wash, (wearing safety glasses and rubber gloves) and reuse.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Apparently some folks don't believe:
    Test by trying a refreshing drink of fresh water and then wrap in plastic bag and dispose. I suppose if one washes with ethanol alcohol it might come clean enough for another use. In our house, a recycled, clean, Miracle Whip jar works instead of the Mason jar.

    I forgot to mention, while the pulp settles, get some eye droppers and bottles from pharmacy along with permanent labels. Make sure it is well labeled . . .

    Bob Wilson
     
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    my holistic healer told me that distilled spirits are excellent, but fermentation is bad for you.
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Just reuse the jar for this one task, or in jarring foods or oils meant to be spicy.
    Capsaicin is oil based, so rinsing/soaking with alcohol, acetone, or cooking oil before washing could be tried for those that really want to save the jar.

    There are capsaicin pain relief creams already at your local pharmacy. Capsaicin Cream and Supplements: Uses and Safety

    And back to the OP, bee sting therapy is a reported alternative to treating arthritis and other pains. Pain relieving compounds have also been isolated from deadly snake venoms.
     
  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    My glucose meter says the same thing. Fermented beverages have too many carbs and unfermented sugars. Distilling solves that problem.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i'm gonna have to find out how to move from beer and wine, to the hard stuff. my problem is, i'm not a sipper.
     
    #13 bisco, Oct 15, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2015
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Liquor 'neat' and a side of club soda, light ice, no fruit. However, you will have to do some 'market research.'

    Go to a comfortable bar and tell them you need 'taste testing' to survey the different brands in a style. The flavors are strong enough, even a dipped toothpick would for screening even if they won't support a teaspoon tasting for a reasonable price. In such cases, starting in price ascending order, get three, shots in a row. Taste each one and separate the angels from the goats. There is no obligation to drink all of what you order, just pay the 'tuition' and move on.

    Think of good liquor as a seasoning and the club soda provides the bulk.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #14 bwilson4web, Oct 16, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2015
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  15. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    BobW added a safety note to #7 but it left me unsatisfied. (The newly restored me)

    I don't want any of you putting volatile, flammable solvents into your blenders or other motorized appliances. 'Explosion proof' motors exist, but I reckon you don't have them.

    To safely use aprotic, non (or weakly) polar solvents to extract capsaicin, add the plant material, vegetable oil and water to the blender. Whirl away. the oil may be less efficient than ethanol (or ether that we are very glad you did not use!), so you might go twice or thrice.

    Now your liquid is a bilayer, oil on top. Pour off the oil, or be a proper chemist and use a separatory funnel.

    Start over with the sep funnel, containing all the oil and add a smaller amount of ethanol. In fact, put both those liquids into the fridge or freezer first (low solubility of cool oil in ethanol). The proper use of a sep funnel, you may have learned in that chemistry class you hated, or just look it up.

    Finally after one or a few 'washes', the capsaicin will be (mostly) in the ethanol layer (less dense, on top). Separate than and evaporate away the ethanol as desired, away from flame and sparks.

    Now you have the desired potion, without risk of immolating your wannabe meth lab.

    Safety first. Die from something else, much later.
     
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  16. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Supercritical carbon dioxide is an ideal solvent here, as for another plant extractive that is now moving towards legalization in the US ('nuff said). Buy the gadgets if they please you; it will support US technology.

    But EEEK! plants have done very well in developing chemicals to modify (control) our behavior. Use modern technology to make those even stronger, and the results become unpredictable. How much of your 'human-ness' are you willing to surrender?

    Decide.
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Doug has exceptional experience to which I defer:
    • He knows more organic chemistry than I ever had any interest in understanding. Truly, Doug is a world-class biologists and I am honored to be his student . . . as should anyone else.
    • He has decades of experience dealing with students and the amazing things they do. Hopefully without permanent scars.
    So I completely agree with his cautions since I had four younger brothers and . . . <sigh> only brother Dave has a scar on one finger, my albatross. Regardless, I want to share what I think is an excellent breakfast:

    [​IMG]
    • sweet bell pepper - in this case a red one but I also have yellow and orange (the best). They are high in vitamine C.
    • refried beans - acceptable brand, the less expensive ones are better. Regardless, they provide fiber, potassium, vitamine C, iron, B-6, and magnesium.
    • fish steaks - a 'sea cow', sardines eat plankton, the cattle of the sea, they are high in B(12) and D.
    • three peppers seasonings - the home-made habenaro extract remains the best.
    So the pepper sections are fully loaded:
    [​IMG]
    • canned okra or spinach are layered over the refried beans - both are seasoned with pepper powder (acceptable) or the extract.
    • layer of fish steaks - to provide protein and B-12.
    [​IMG]
    • zapped in microwave - 1 minute full power and 3-4 minutes at 50-60% power
    • eat - yummy Bob food
    Understand that I like everything in this dish, I eat them directly from the can. Combined, they make a dish that I consider a premium breakfast. I don't care if you like it or not. It fully meets my requirements.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #17 bwilson4web, Oct 21, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2015
  18. Montgomery

    Montgomery Senior Member

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    And here we have...Priuschat.com's spice and food channel. "Chopped" ain't got nothin on us!
     
  19. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Whether one takes 'the kids' into a chemistry lab or a walking through a tropical forest, there always needs to be some attention paid to personal safety. It is just that simple, and need not be restated as epic heroics.

    In both settings I have managed to avoid serious mishaps, sometimes by careful preparations, and other times by dumb luck.

    Perhaps it is natural to become more risk averse through decades? I just want BobW here to act like a 60-something. Thus to make it into the 70s :)
     
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Personally, I think an over-rich diet high in carbohydrates and fats is our biggest risk. Body mass threatens us old folks . . . well at least in the USA. China may have better dietary practices.

    Bob Wilson
     
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