We should indict Saddam if he is guilty of 9/11 crimes

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Aug 23 2006, 10:15 PM) [snapback]308612[/snapback]</div>

No one is arguing with the statement is the world better off without Saddam, however that statement can be made about almost every dictator and president-for-life out there. Does that mean that we have to go around the world deposing bad people?

Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq

Of course, reality can hurt if you base your decisions on faith-based reasoning.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Aug 23 2006, 09:15 PM) [snapback]308612[/snapback]</div>

You did not respond to my statements as requested.

As for one country invading another.... I guess it's only ok if you are the U.S.

Environmental disasters, HAHAHAHAHAHA The U.S. is one huge environmental desaster.

WMD's?????? I think you and Cheney are the only 2 people on Earth who still believe he had them!

Torture? You've got a lot of nerve bringing that up in the context of this conversation.

And terrorism. The world is most certainly not safer today then before we invaded Iraq, and I've already stated why. The "war on terror" is an abismal failure.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Aug 24 2006, 11:46 AM) [snapback]308783[/snapback]</div>

The US is the only country to invade another country? How about Hezbollah invading Israel? Germany and Poland. Heck, Iraq and Kuwait (remember that one?). Rome vs. Israel.....

The US an environmental disaster? Our air and water quality today vs 30 years ago? Read the NY Times today - they are pulling the biggest blue crabs out of the Hudson River today than in the past 30 years!

Torture - lets see.... Saddam was Ghandi re-incarnated. The Soviets or Chinese? How bout those Cubans. And dont forget about those Islamofascists - they just love beheading innocent Americans right and left.

If your definition of failure is not losing any innocent American lives on the homeland in the past 5 years, than what is success. And you are right about the world not being safer - that is why we must take out Iran's nuclear program instantly - on that we agree.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(triphop @ Aug 24 2006, 09:52 AM) [snapback]308748[/snapback]</div>

Actually triphop, I am. Now, if you want to make some hypothetical argument about what if we could go back 4 years and magically pluck him out of existance, then would the world have been better of, I think the answer is most likely yes. But we didn't do that. The rational for going to war was proven wrong, and circumstances under which we carried out the invasion and occupation were and are tragically mismanaged. I have explained why in an earlier post. The net result, IMO, is a huge negative, for the world as a whole.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 24 2006, 09:02 AM) [snapback]308792[/snapback]</div>

Certain aspects of the environment in the U.S. has indeed gotten better but if you look back to all of the environmental laws that were put into place 36 years ago you could start to see why. Now you have to look at all the laws that have been brought down by this administration and how many "kickbacks" he has put into place to allow corporations to pollute on a grand scale and remain immune to environmental lawyers.

One only needs to look at the degredation of Texas when Bush jr. was Gov. I mean come on, doing away with a regulatory agency put into place to oversee corporations and their pollution habits and instead allow the corporations to police themselves with no penalties for "bad" behavior? Its a joke. Or how about appointing former lawyers of a law firm that specializes in defending gross polluters to the head of EPA Air Division, not once but twice?

Lastly, do I need to meantion New Orleans? A disaster waiting to happen again. "We're gonna stay and rebuild! I was born in New Orleans and I'm gonna die in New orleans" Its just as bad here in Sacramento. We are built on a flood plain and our assinine polititions want to build up our levees, put new housing developments in the direct flood plain, and have been lobbying for 20+yrs to put a damn on a friggin known fault line!

America sucks sometimes.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Aug 24 2006, 12:05 PM) [snapback]308795[/snapback]</div>

another facilitator of evil. you see good where there is evil. You deny and promote the same environment that existed in the 1930's with Hitler.

You ignore the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's dug out of mass graves already - the hundred thousand + kurds he killed with WMD's!

The rational for going to war extended beyond WMD's and the other 16 articles of war. He gave $25,000 to each and every homocide bomber that killed Israeli's - that was ok with you I am assuming?

And you probably think leaving Iran alone is ok too as they supply the worlds terror network with money, arms, technology, and soon to be NUCLEAR weapons? You would let them be??

The same will be true if people like you carry the day as what happened in WWII. The only exception is that the loss of life will be a multiple of what is was back then and the destruction will be on a scale never seen before. You keep going....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 24 2006, 11:02 AM) [snapback]308792[/snapback]</div>

I was being facetious. I find it amusing that Iraq is criticized for invading another country in the same breath that the U.S. is defended for doing the same thing.

Let's have a look at carbon emissions....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carbon_...n_by_Region.png

Your point?

Ok - we agree - the world is not safer today in the realm of terrorism.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Aug 24 2006, 12:21 PM) [snapback]308813[/snapback]</div>

The motive behind the aggressions were dramatically different. If you cannot see that that is a problem. Again, you see good where there is evil and evil where there is good. You become part of the problem at that point.

you selectively choose one measurement. How about overall quality of air and water?

Now that we agree on something - I am sure you agree that we must do our best to protect the world from becoming a more dangerous place where terror has WMD's - so we agree we must BLOCK Iran from getting nukes. WE MUST NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE WE MADE WITH NORTH KOREA!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 24 2006, 09:33 AM) [snapback]308823[/snapback]</div>

Again, it has started to degrade again through the efforts of this Admin. You must also look at the simple fact we have moved many of our environmentally destructive industries overseas to countries with more relaxed environmental laws. So while we reap the benifits of our outlandish lifestyles the people of those countries must bear the burden of pollution and environmental degradation. I wont even go into the problems associated with world trade by multinational companies and the invasive species that plague many of our ecosystems. lol

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Aug 24 2006, 12:48 PM) [snapback]308831[/snapback]</div>

You continue to obfiscate.

Outlandish lifestyles - interesting. What is so outlandish in your humble opinion?

Others bearing our burdens? Explain.

Invasive species... Are you referring to those little aliens you see at night??

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 24 2006, 09:57 AM) [snapback]308837[/snapback]</div>

Easy enough.

Outlandish in that we crave lots of material items at the expense of the environment. Its affectionately called Affluenza. There is even a nice formula to help determine a country's level of "Impact" on the environment.

I=PAT Impact = Population x Affluence x Technology (its a very simplified formula that doesnt take all factors into account but gives one a good idea)

The higher the population the greater the impact on the environment. The higher the level of affluence the great the impact on the environment. Technology used to supply that populaiton with its needs is a modifier. Good/clean technology can modify by lessening the Impact but bad technology can worsen it.

So in essense Americans are THE WORST polluters simply because we live in big houses, own 3+ cars per family, have lots of clothes, cell phones, TVs, computers etc etc. These all require natural resources to create thus our ecological footprint is the highest in the world. Our media and societal norms push us to feel we need to have lots of material crap to be happy when in reality most psychologists and ethicists believe otherwise and that it is contributing to a downward spiral of morality and social degradation but I'm gettign a bit off the subject.


Other must bear the burnden of our lifestyles by dealing with the day to day poluution and environmental degradation inflicted by either our large corporations that move overseas or their own domestic companies that export crap to us. If there was no market for it these polluting factories would not be in business. We also expect to pay less for items which puts pressur eon employers to cut corners and leads to unsafe working conditions or to shady business ethics. IE: how in Sri Lanka local militia "strongarm" local farmers for their goods at EXTREMELY low prices then turn around and sell to exporters at an inflated profit. Which is why eco labling like "Fair Trade Certified" is becoming more common. Slam poet Jared Paul has a great saying in one of his "songs"

^^ Think diamonds



Ivasive species: (small list of the important ones that effect our ecosystems and thus our economy and coast us billions of dollars every year)

Aquatic Plants

Brazilian Waterweed (Egeria densa)
Caulerpa, Mediterranean Clone (Caulerpa taxifolia)
Common Reed (Phragmites australis)
Eurasian Watermilfoil (Myriophyllum spicatum)
Giant Reed (Arundo donax)
Giant Salvinia (Salvinia molesta)
Hydrilla (Hydrilla verticillata)
Melaleuca (Melaleuca quinquenervia)
Purple Loosestrife (Lythrum salicaria)
Water Chestnut (Trapa natans)
Water Hyacinth (Eichhornia crassipes)


Aquatic Animals

Alewife (Alosa pseudoharengus)
Asian Swamp Eel (Monopterus albus)
Bullfrog (Rana catesbeiana)
Chinese Mitten Crab (Eriocheir sinensis)
Eurasian Ruffe (Gymnocephalus cernuus)
European Green Crab (Carcinus maenas)
Flathead Catfish (Pylodictus olivaris)
Lionfish (Pterois volitans)
Northern Snakehead (Channa argus)
Nutria (Myocastor coypus)
Round Goby (Neogobius melanostomus)
Sea Lamprey (Petromyzon marinus)
Sea Squirt (Didemnum lahillei)
Veined Rapa Whelk (Rapana venosa)
Zebra Mussel (Dreissena polymorpha)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Aug 24 2006, 01:25 PM) [snapback]308855[/snapback]</div>

Wow - touched a nerve there. So you live in a teepee, dont use electricity, dont use modern medicines, sew you own clothes, have a septic system, dont buy anything man-made, etc, etc. Americans are the worst? Ever been to St. Barts? How about Monico? France too.

 

Actually didn't touch a nerve. You asked and I gave you all the pertinant information on the subject. Simplfied of course.

I also assumed you would respond that way. Its very typical of those who are not educated on the subject and want to assume that one must live in a cave and make their own clothes of natural organically grown fibers to be a part of the solution and not the problem.

I've recognized the problems associated with my lifestyle and have taken numerous steps to lessen my impact. I sold my big house, '00 my Corvette, my '00 Trans Am, '02 Chevy Truck and even my reef tank (due to energy usage). I now try to combine my trips so i dont waste extra fuel even though I drive the prius which gets excellent milage. I try to buy locally grown produce and meats to reduce fuel costs from imported items. I buy Fair Trade Certified coffee and other products when available and I do volunteer work in local ecosystem restoration projects (SaveCloverValley.org, and Dry Creek Conservancy). I also try to eat less meat to reduce the horrible impact that industry has on the world. I love a good steak though so I just cant bring myself to go vegitarian/vegan lol

Am I perfect? Not at all, but I do try to do my part which is more than I can say for those who try to belittle those in the know and try to act cool despite their ignorance on the greater problems in the world.

I really do get dissapointed when environmentalists are ridiculed or made to be "uncool" despite the simple fact that all that they strive for helps EVERYONE and their fiture generations and the "cool" people in this world do nothing but destroy it and leave the place worse off for future generations. Its a crazy place we live in...

Ohh, and yes America is THE WORST. In every science book or scientific journal I have read we indeed have the highest level of impact due to our population #s and our xtreme level of affluence. We have great technology in some cases but its over here, our environmental impact doesnt stop here though. Like I stated above, what we buy is part of our impact no matter if it is created in another part of the world.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Betelgeuse @ Aug 22 2006, 01:37 PM) [snapback]307626[/snapback]</div>

We don't know whats wrong with him, but, yes, he IS incapable of reading what you say. He has done this so many times to so many posters it is ridiculous. Quit wasting your time.....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Aug 24 2006, 02:17 PM) [snapback]308885[/snapback]</div>

I admire you for practicing what you preach. We will disagree on this entire subject from head to toe, but I admire you for your approach to what you believe in. Too bad you did not have a 1976 Trans Am - I would have loved to buy that bad boy - my age is showing now.

take care

and you never know, maybe that technology like solar power, nuclear power, etc will end up being the greatest friend of our environment??

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 24 2006, 01:22 PM) [snapback]308888[/snapback]</div>

Dang, another thing you and I agree on?????

 

Spot on, F8L.

I remain amazed how people on this forum, let alone off it, fail to grasp that America's geopolitical woes are a simple solution away: buy domestic alternative energy rather than foreign oil.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 24 2006, 11:22 AM) [snapback]308888[/snapback]</div>

Thanks man. I cannot unfortunately verify with 100% when I am right or wrong and as such I do take into consideraiton what you say. Its never good to spew opinions without honestly listening to what the other person has to say Nuclure power is an interesting one after they found that aluinum particlas can trap radioactive xenon gases for billions of years so far (from the nuclear fission that took place naturally over 1.7 billion years ago). For more info goole Oklo Nuclear Fission or Here


EricGo, Thank you. There is so much we can all do without seriously cripling our lifestyles and even more we can do if we can just make a simple mind change about what is important to us.

 

I continue to be amazed that anyone can live in the modern world and not think that we're making an impact on our planet. There are billions of us, and we produce waste everywhere we go. People see the local effects of pollution, yet somehow think there's no possible way that all the local effects combined can have an impact on global health/climate...???

The argument always sounds to me like the enviro/eco/whatever-friendly people are saying "Let's do something to help... here are a lot of reasons and things we can do." The Status-quo-loving, people all seem to say "There's nothing wrong in the world, so why should we try to fix ANYTHING? It sounds to me like they've been convinced by the whining of large companies that stand to lose a lot of money. They somehow think that because the Exxons of the world won't do well with reduced profits, that translates to the common man's interests as well.

Even IF (big IF, IMO since it's already observable) there's no impact from CO2 emssions, it's a little debated notion that there's a limited supply of oil under the earth. One way or another a big change is not too far away, and all the big industries would be doing themselves a favor by jumping out ahead of the problem instead of waiting for disaster to force them into action when there's no option left and little hope of recovery.

At least the price of gas is driving some people to buy a Prius in spite of their denial of climate/social/political/ethical/etc. concerns related to fossil fuel over-consumption... that is, assuming dbermanmd and the likes actually own a Prius and aren't just here to stick their fingers in their ears and shout. At least if that's true, we can all congratulate each other on being a little bit less a part of the problem.

But even that is small consolation because it clearly took external pressure, not forward thinking, to get people into action. If we always wait for disaster, rather than going for the root of impending problems, then it's always going to be a bad scene.

And back to Iraq, it seems such a bad approach to me since terrorism is not a person you can kill, or a country you can invade and control. It's born from hatred and extremism, and fed by the swagger and defiance of the U.S. government. Do I think we can make nice and play patty-cake with existing terrorists? No. But I KNOW that invading some coutry for whatever reason is not the way to stop terrorism. It's the way to make more enemies of that country and its neighbors.

I'm hoping we can find ways to take away the reasons behind the hatred rather than inspiring more of it. Israel/Palestine (and now Lebanon) is a great example of how NOT to settle a fight between a strong nation, and a group of terrorists, because every battle, every bomb, requires retaliation by the other side. One Palestinian kid is killed, and his 2 brothers become terrorists to avenge him. They kill 5 Israelis and Israel has to kill 10 Palestinians to continue looking "strong" in the face of their enemy. Each of those 10 has a brother or two. Et cetera.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ichabod @ Aug 24 2006, 12:18 PM) [snapback]308931[/snapback]</div>

I obviously agree with you 100% on the environmental subject but I'll stop there so this stays on track with the original thread topic.

If you want to read more on this interesting topic check out State of the World 2005 - Redfining Global Security

Excerpt from the book: