What Did President Bush Gain...

windstrings · Sep 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Sep 12 2006, 07:36 AM) [snapback]318277[/snapback]</div>

It sounds to me like President G.H.W. Bush and his advisors (including Colin Powell) had the idea that the government would collapse if they pushed on to Baghdad & got rid of Saddam. Why, then, did the current administration (which includes people that served in the first Bush administration) not have this on the table? If it was a thought then, it should have been a thought in 2003 and a plan --even a sketchy one-- should have been drawn up. I realize you can't plan for everything, but it seems like this should have been a no-brainer.
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We tend to get pretty lofty and highminded "like in Vietnam" and think if we flex our muscles, everyone will go running and not come back.

One thing we miscalculated is that the Islamic/MiddleEastern world that supported Saddam realizes that if they don't take this opportunity to give the US a black eye, that their days are numbered.

In the same fashion that if we were seriously attacked, our allies "hopefully" would come to our aid and the persons who attacked us would not have attacked only us, but would have us and our allies to tango with.

When we attacked Iraq, we did win quite quickly, However, now we are fighting every other neighboring countries that were allies to Saddam, except we are fighting them "in" Iraq.

We have started a war with the whole Islamic Middle East!, Just like if someone attacked us, they would be starting a war with the whole free world.

Again, we misjudged the seriousness of our enemy. These guys don't see this war as a way to save face, but its the meaning of thier existence... just like Bush stated this war is a battle for our existence when he stated that its a struggle "for" civilization.

Many who are asleep "for the last 20 years", in the comfort and shelter of the US, saw the whole Islamic mentality as no threat as long as they kept thier dirtly little ways on thier side of the world... but its thier plan to take over the world and kill all those who are not believers as they believe. Just read thier bible which is thier guide to life.

They are no interested in "co-existence", or they would leave little insignificant Isreal alone who occupied only a fraction of the area and is no threat to take over the region, in fact they are giving up even more of thier land, yet they all want them dead and wiped out.

Very similiar mentality that predominated in Hitlers day... almost like the same spirit is taking a second attempt to wipe out all Jews.... except its far more reaching this time... thats just the start.

The fact of the matter is, we never want to spend money to fix our roads and do anything proactive, but rather wait till its a crisis before we deem it worth to fork over the bucks.

Their are many who begrudge the expense of money and lives we are spending on this war, and would much rather wait till we have no choice.

To each his own, I myself want my enemies to know their is a high price to pay if they assault me, that knowledge will often thwart off attacks, others are intimidated and just hope the problem will go away on its own.

I'm sure Bin Laden also miscalculated when he attacked us and didn't think he would be living in a cave today.

Mystery Squid · Sep 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 12 2006, 12:03 PM) [snapback]318367[/snapback]</div>

This was simply an apparent good idea (to Bush and cronies) that would strike a blow on terror (so they thought), get rid of some WMD (would make nice TV when they were blowing up all that stuff) and do so in a quick and clean fashion. They believed the Iraqi people would embrace the take over (in large part they didn't), a few months to establish a new gov't and army, out in a year or two leaving behind a democratic gov't of no potential danger to the US. And that would sound like a good plan to me, too, if I were the decision maker.
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I skimmed through this article when this caught my eye...

Bush said from THE START, it was going to be a long and difficult road... A brief search of Bush speeches revealed this from early November 2003...

Securing democracy in Iraq is the work of many hands. American and coalition forces are sacrificing for the peace of Iraq and for the security of free nations. Aid workers from many countries are facing danger to help the Iraqi people. The National Endowment for Democracy is promoting women's rights, and training Iraqi journalists, and teaching the skills of political participation. Iraqis, themselves -- police and borders guards and local officials -- are joining in the work and they are sharing in the sacrifice.

This is a massive and difficult undertaking -- it is worth our effort, it is worth our sacrifice, because we know the stakes. The failure of Iraqi democracy would embolden terrorists around the world, increase dangers to the American people, and extinguish the hopes of millions in the region. Iraqi democracy will succeed -- and that success will send forth the news, from Damascus to Teheran -- that freedom can be the future of every nation. (Applause.) The establishment of a free Iraq at the heart of the Middle East will be a watershed event in the global democratic revolution. (Applause.)
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I know there are more references to hardship and difficulty going back to even to 2001...

efusco · Sep 12, 2006

Nov. 2003's a bit late for this realization don't you think... I'm happy to read any references you have prior to the take-over of Bagdad that suggest he knew the scope of the difficulty we'd have.

Mystery Squid · Sep 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 12 2006, 04:26 PM) [snapback]318550[/snapback]</div>

Nov. 2003's a bit late for this realization don't you think... I'm happy to read any references you have prior to the take-over of Bagdad that suggest he knew the scope of the difficulty we'd have.
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Yeah, and I'd be happy to read references which support your point of a slam-bam, thank you ma'am....!

Edit: from Bush or the Administration itself, not wacko-commie-pinko sites!!! lol

March, 2003

A campaign on harsh terrain in a vast country could be longer and more difficult than some have predicted. And helping Iraqis achieve a united, stable, and free country will require our sustained commitment. Yet, whatever is required of us, we will carry out all the duties we have accepted.
Across America this weekend, the families of our military are praying that our men and women will return safely and soon. Millions of Americans are praying with them for the safety of their loved ones and for the protection of all the innocent. Our entire nation appreciates the sacrifices made by military families, and many citizens who live near military families are showing their support in practical ways, such as by helping with child care, or home repairs. All families with loved ones serving in this war can know this: Our forces will be coming home as soon as their work is done.

Our nation entered this conflict reluctantly, yet with a clear and firm purpose. The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder. Now that conflict has come, the only way to limit its duration is to apply decisive force. This will not be a campaign of half-measures. It is a fight for the security of our nation and the peace of the world, and we will accept no outcome but victory.

Thank you for listening.

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Doesn't really sound like a man who thinks it will be as quick and easy as you accuse...

October, 2001

This military action is a part of our campaign against terrorism, another front in a war that has already been joined through diplomacy, intelligence, the freezing of financial assets and the arrests of known terrorists by law enforcement agents in 38 countries. Given the nature and reach of our enemies, we will win this conflict by the patient accumulation of successes, by meeting a series of challenges with determination and will and purpose. [/b]
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"patient accumulation of successes"....

Alric · Sep 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Sep 12 2006, 03:48 PM) [snapback]318554[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, and I'd be happy to read references which support your point of a slam-bam, thank you ma'am....!

Edit: from Bush or the Administration itself, not wacko-commie-pinko sites!!! lol
March, 2003
Doesn't really sound like a man who thinks it will be as quick and easy as you accuse...
October, 2001
"patient accumulation of successes"....
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Or, if he thought it would be difficult, he could have followed the reccomendation of the joint chief of staff and use 500k. Instead of armwrestle the artifical number of 50k that Rumsfeld wanted. I don't know if he had a justification, real or otherwise, but the administration was as incompetent in Iraq as everything else.

jayman · Sep 12, 2006

post deleted for inappropriate content

Sufferin' Prius Envy · Sep 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 11 2006, 02:27 PM) [snapback]317958[/snapback]</div>

It was diplomancy and intelligence at its worst mixed with a sense of invulnerability of the military and a fear of vulnerability at home. And here we are.[/b]
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tadashi @ Sep 12 2006, 07:03 AM) [snapback]318261[/snapback]</div>

His decisions were based on the current intelligence at the time. Did they make a mistake on the intel, maybe, but once it started you are not going to say oopps and pull out. A failed nation state is worse than the dictatorship. Terrorist organizations can then just walk right in and setup shop.[/b]
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Of course, in 20/20 hindsight, there was 'failed' intelligence on Iraq regarding WMD.

1) For years Saddam had played a cat and mouse game with the UN weapons inspectors. He did not fully disclose his programs, gave misleading, partial or false information, and did not give the inspectors the mandated - free and unfettered - access to locations of their choosing at the time of their choosing.
- So, it's no surprise to me the the UN inspectors couldn't find any WMD.
- I could put my hands over my eyes and say, â€œI don't see a computer monitor in front of me.â€
Is it true?
Sure! . . . I don't SEE a computer monitor.
Is it there? YOU haven't seen it.
PROVE IT'S THERE!!!
I've used a computer in the past. But maybe I'm really not using a monitor now. Maybe I really us a thermal dye printer instead.
What do you think is the reality???

2) Since Saddam's military was in tatters after the first Gulf War, he was afraid of an invasion by his mortal enemy, Iran. He wanted Iran to believe Iraq still had WMD.
- Shame on the US intelligence community for believing him. After all, he was playing games with the UN inspectors, and wanted Iran to believe the WMDs still existed . . . so why shouldn't we? We thought he was going to use them on us during the first Gulf War . . . otherwise, I wouldn't have hopped in and out of that dammed WMD MOPP Suit like a scared rabbit. (HEY! <_< I was in Naval Aviation, and not into ground pounding. :lol: )
- If Iran attacked a weakened Iraq after the first Gulf War, we too would have been in a world of hurt! What would we have done? Come to Saddam's rescue? :huh: :blink: Allow Iran to conquer Iraq? :angry: All options would have been a no win scenario.

3) Saddam DID use WMD on the Iranians and Kurds.
- Did he use them all up?
- Did he bury them in the desert?
- Did he give them to terrorists?
Where are the weapons? Where are the conspiracy theorists for this one????

As efusco alluded to . . . Tell yourselves enough times that we went to war in Iraq for Halliburton's bottom line, and you just may begin to believe yourselves. Some of you definitely need less repetition than others.

tag · Sep 12, 2006

Could we tone it down just a tad, boys? Please, by all means, feel free to carry on the discussion but without the ad hominems and name calling. Thanks!

hycamguy07 · Sep 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Sep 12 2006, 03:42 PM) [snapback]318520[/snapback]</div>

We tend to get pretty lofty and highminded "like in Vietnam" and think if we flex our muscles, everyone will go running and not come back.

One thing we miscalculated is that the Islamic/MiddleEastern world that supported Saddam realizes that if they don't take this opportunity to give the US a black eye, that their days are numbered.

In the same fashion that if we were seriously attacked, our allies "hopefully" would come to our aid and the persons who attacked us would not have attacked only us, but would have us and our allies to tango with.

When we attacked Iraq, we did win quite quickly, However, now we are fighting every other neighboring countries that were allies to Saddam, except we are fighting them "in" Iraq.

We have started a war with the whole Islamic Middle East!, Just like if someone attacked us, they would be starting a war with the whole free world.

Again, we misjudged the seriousness of our enemy. These guys don't see this war as a way to save face, but its the meaning of thier existence... just like Bush stated this war is a battle for our existence when he stated that its a struggle "for" civilization.

Many who are asleep "for the last 20 years", in the comfort and shelter of the US, saw the whole Islamic mentality as no threat as long as they kept thier dirtly little ways on thier side of the world... but its thier plan to take over the world and kill all those who are not believers as they believe. Just read thier bible which is thier guide to life.

They are no interested in "co-existence", or they would leave little insignificant Isreal alone who occupied only a fraction of the area and is no threat to take over the region, in fact they are giving up even more of thier land, yet they all want them dead and wiped out.

Very similiar mentality that predominated in Hitlers day... almost like the same spirit is taking a second attempt to wipe out all Jews.... except its far more reaching this time... thats just the start.

The fact of the matter is, we never want to spend money to fix our roads and do anything proactive, but rather wait till its a crisis before we deem it worth to fork over the bucks.

Their are many who begrudge the expense of money and lives we are spending on this war, and would much rather wait till we have no choice.

To each his own, I myself want my enemies to know their is a high price to pay if they assault me, that knowledge will often thwart off attacks, others are intimidated and just hope the problem will go away on its own.

I'm sure Bin Laden also miscalculated when he attacked us and didn't think he would be living in a cave today.
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Very well said!!

windstrings · Sep 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Sep 12 2006, 02:18 PM) [snapback]318576[/snapback]</div>

post deleted for inappropriate content
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Wow.. Jayman... thats unusual for you!.. that must have been juicy!

I don't notice too many things deleted anymore.....

NuShrike · Sep 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Sep 12 2006, 02:32 PM) [snapback]318584[/snapback]</div>

Of course, in 20/20 hindsight, there was 'failed' intelligence on Iraq regarding WMD.[/b]
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Whose failed intelligence? There were two different sides to it, the CIA who already knew better and said so for quite a long time until the forced 2002 NIE, and the amateurs in the Pentagon's new "intelligence" staffed by Rumsfield's group.

This Pentagon group justified every little weak circumstantial evidence they came upon that matched targeted goals as fact and fed it up the tree. And of course, the CIA and Tenet took the fall for it because they ended up rubberstamping the bad intelligence, even when the CIA knew better.

Now, it seems those who avoided taking the fall for massaging the evidence are still in there. Can we trust these new intelligence agencies?

narussian · Sep 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 11 2006, 04:27 PM) [snapback]317958[/snapback]</div>

But I think he though he was doing the right thing. [/b]
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I think you are giving Bush too much credit by assuming that he actually thought!
Why in the hell would someone want to be president twice? With a country at war?

hyo silver · Sep 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Sep 12 2006, 02:23 PM) [snapback]318468[/snapback]</div>

...And some of us in the US of A could not give a ---- what you think of us. If you dont like us so much, stop trading with us. And your good will - ha. how about living off the largess of this country - you have spent nothing to defend yourselves in decades - you have life like a parasite - imagine what you would be doing for a living if you were located somewhere else. And why oh why are so many of you guys moving south?? At least you now have a conservative govt in place - and hence a brighter tomorrow. And remember, when you guys call for help - make sure you dont call us. BTW - do you still trust our $? And you are sure in love with yourself speaking for 5.5 BILLION humans - must be a Canadian trait
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Dave, I don't understand your apparent hatred of all things Canadian. I also don't understand why this sort of post is perfectly acceptable.

hycamguy07 · Sep 13, 2006

I'll call the waaabulance fpr the extreme lefties..... Is there anything they don't B*tch, whine, rant or cry about??

There are several Lefties that add to good conversation others take offence to every word spoken. Then the Name calling starts.. Just read whats posted if it P*sses you off, take a moment deep breath then type.

Mystery Squid · Sep 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Sep 13 2006, 05:53 AM) [snapback]318840[/snapback]</div>

I'll call the waaabulance fpr the extreme lefties.....[/b]
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Sep 12 2006, 10:24 PM) [snapback]318729[/snapback]</div>

Wow.. Jayman... thats unusual for you!.. that must have been juicy!

I don't notice too many things deleted anymore.....
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Damn! I would have LOVED to see that one!!!!!

TonyPSchaefer · Sep 13, 2006

Oh PriusGuy, you almost had me there for a minute. I was all set to agree with your agreement of Windstrings' post, which is an enlightening post. But then you went and started up with the "Lefties" and "always whining" rhetoric. I was so close to finding common ground.

Windstrings, I think your post has several layers to it and you have articulated it well. I am often trying to beat it into other people's minds that other people have allies just like we have allies. Other people will fight to their death to defend themselves just like we will fight to our death to defend ourselves. Other people have national and religious beliefs just like we have national and religious beliefs. For some reason, many Americans hold on to the thought that, as you said, "all we have to do is flex our muscles." I hope fewer people still belive that.

Tadashi · Sep 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(narussian @ Sep 12 2006, 10:25 PM) [snapback]318780[/snapback]</div>

I think you are giving Bush too much credit by assuming that he actually thought!
Why in the hell would someone want to be president twice? With a country at war?
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Because switching presidents in the middle of one can really mess things up. It is like constantly changing the boss of a company. Sometimes it can be good but most times the company flouders around constantly changing strategies. I think only two conflicts did we not have the same president. WWII due to death and Vietnam because it was so long (Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford). I should have paid more attention in History class.

dbermanmd · Sep 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike @ Sep 12 2006, 10:50 PM) [snapback]318743[/snapback]</div>

Whose failed intelligence? There were two different sides to it, the CIA who already knew better and said so for quite a long time until the forced 2002 NIE, and the amateurs in the Pentagon's new "intelligence" staffed by Rumsfield's group.

This Pentagon group justified every little weak circumstantial evidence they came upon that matched targeted goals as fact and fed it up the tree. And of course, the CIA and Tenet took the fall for it because they ended up rubberstamping the bad intelligence, even when the CIA knew better.

Now, it seems those who avoided taking the fall for massaging the evidence are still in there. Can we trust these new intelligence agencies?
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i have another post on intelligence in FHOP's - so to the point - what did Bush have to gain by going to war?

windstrings · Sep 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(narussian @ Sep 12 2006, 09:25 PM) [snapback]318780[/snapback]</div>

I think you are giving Bush too much credit by assuming that he actually thought!
Why in the hell would someone want to be president twice? With a country at war?
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Some people like to finish what they start so thier efforts were not in vain.At least he didn't want to run and let someone mop up the mess.

Who knows.. he may actually "care" about his country more than himself?

Wouldn't that be rare for a politian?

Proco · Sep 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Sep 13 2006, 09:34 AM) [snapback]318877[/snapback]</div>

i have another post on intelligence in FHOP's - so to the point - what did Bush have to gain by going to war?[/b]
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Others have answered with their opinions, and some of them have been quite detailed (thanks, Evan).

I'd like to hear your opinion. Your replies indicate you don't think Bush & Co. had nothing to gain from the invasion. I'd like to know why you think he had nothing to gain.

I have my beliefs, but I'm willing to entertain other points of view. Especially if they're presented in a well-reasoned manner.

What Did President Bush Gain...

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