What happen when EV federal tax credit exhausted? New bill to remove the threshold

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by citiprius, Jul 2, 2018.

Tags:
  1. citiprius

    citiprius Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2006
    173
    151
    51
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Premium
  2. goinskiing

    goinskiing Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2014
    202
    185
    0
    Location:
    Meridian, ID, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    I was just reading about this and I have always thought the threshold limit was kind of stupid since it kind of punishes the leaders in EV. A hard date time limit or every few years, raise the bar by offering more incentive for longer range. This is a good bill, but is a bit ambitious at a 10 year time frame.
     
    Trollbait likes this.
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    14,173
    6,157
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    And awards the fence sitters.

    A time limit or not tying the car limit to each manufacturer would have been better. Better to also have it be a direct rebate on the purchase price.

    I don't hold much hope on an extension passing at this point.
     
  4. goinskiing

    goinskiing Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2014
    202
    185
    0
    Location:
    Meridian, ID, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    I don't expect it to pass as is, however a modified version could quite possibly pass. The two leading manufacturers that are close to this threshold are US companies, if it is framed as helping US businesses then it could have a better shot. Shoot, even just doubling the threshold as a "kick-the-can down the road" effort would be good enough for now.
     
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    14,173
    6,157
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Yes, but one of those companies was recently saved by the other side, and still has the scary Unions working in their factories. Then there were moves to cancel the program early.

    The cost of Li-ion batteries have improved faster than predicted back when the bill for the incentives was written. The loss of the incentive for Tesla and GM only hurts them because the fence sitters will still be getting it. Either extending or cancelling the program to prevent that works for me. Losing the incentive will slow adoption some, but I don't see that killing the market. The car companies will still offer plug ins in the US because of CARB and CAFE, and the fact that China is forcing them to make them, so might as well spread the R&D costs out some more.
     
    goinskiing likes this.
  6. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,554
    4,348
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    There is more to "leadership" than what we have seen; yet, only range & power are recognized as progress.
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    14,173
    6,157
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Cost reductions have also been going on.
     
  8. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,554
    4,348
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    That isn't recognized as leadership.

    Of course, not being expensive in the first place is more important.
     
    #8 john1701a, Jul 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
  9. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    10,730
    3,221
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    I personally expect Dems to extend the plug-in incentives as soon as they get a chance after Repubs likely get trounced in Nov. and 2020. Loss of incentives would probably seriously hurt plug-in sales, and I do not expect Congress to allow that to happen, although at the moment there may be resistance.
     
  10. William Redoubt

    William Redoubt Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2016
    1,182
    1,124
    1
    Location:
    Coronado Island, California
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I don't understand why electrics cost so much to begin with. They are much simpler in terms of number of parts. That should translate into lower initial costs.
     
  11. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2018
    2,480
    2,328
    1
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    I say cut the credit amount in half and double the units it covers. Then do it again a few times.

    Then it's the automaker's problem to build the cars at a low enough price to make the ratio of price/credit look as attractive as the current scheme. Jacks up pressure to develop for the mass market.

    all for the same cost to the taxpayers as the current system.
     
  12. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,554
    4,348
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Achieving high-reliability and high-efficiency is expensive. Check out a China made electric... noisy & rough, but cheap.

    Think about how gas engines vary.
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    14,173
    6,157
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    A large part of a BEV's price is in the battery; it needs enough range in order to sell. Costs have come down, but the manufacturing base for ICE cars is still vastly larger, allowing savings through scale. Then number of parts isn't a good metric to look at for cost. Yes, a motor has less parts than an ICE, but copper is an important material in it, and that costs more than the steel of aluminum used in the engine.

    Leadership within this discussion is referring the first companies to other plug ins in mass. Ground breakers is probably a better term.

    The structure of the federal incentives awards the companies that wait to enter the market more than the ground breakers. Waiting, and letting others take the risk is a fine business strategy, but without the groundbreakers, there wouldn't be a market for them to wait for. The structure of the incentives in being a set number of units per manufacturer means the groundbreakers get less value for their's in the beginning as the production and material costs are higher in the beginning stages of developing the new market. Once the cost reductions are realized, the groundbreakers have a lower amount of incentive units in order to recoup the cost for that initial market build up than those companies that waited.

    The incentives should have had a set end date, or a set time period to last after the first company used up their amount. As is, there is a slight negative pressure in actually starting the new market.
     
    fotomoto likes this.
  14. dubit

    dubit Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    656
    395
    16
    Location:
    Indiana
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    iono guys, while I understand the reasons for the credit, it's time to move on. Especially if your state is giving you a credit as well. My reasons are simple - I pay taxes out the rear as it is now, so please don't make me to subsidize someone else's vehicle purchase. Environment, environment I know, I know. But holy crap, the Feds spend so much friggin money as it is and if the some of those loony libs win and take congress, then we're screwed even worse than we are with the republicans. (both are not on my list of favorites, so don't go thinking I'm this or that because I seriously can't stand either of them)

    Just tired of subsidizing "everyone's everything". :(
     
  15. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2018
    2,480
    2,328
    1
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    ^ Need some syrup for them pancakes? ;)

    I'd respond further but I do think it would be better conducted in the FHOP forum...
     
    dubit likes this.
  16. dubit

    dubit Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    656
    395
    16
    Location:
    Indiana
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    You crack me up guy. Knew I'd like you the day I first seen that username. :)
     
  17. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    10,730
    3,221
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Think "ethanol lobby"...the lofty rationale of ethanol/plug-ins is "environment" but the true rationale is jobs, jobs, jobs
     
  18. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,554
    4,348
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Not a good example. Here in Minnesota, the effort to ensure ethanol is as green as possible is taken quite seriously.

    It was the national rollout that turned out yellow.
     
  19. triggerhappy007

    triggerhappy007 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2018
    326
    207
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Premium
    How are you subsidizing someone else's vehicle purchase? You don't get taxed more for each person that buys an EV. If that's your train of thought then I'm tired of subsidizing the child tax credit and the earned income tax credit. Who's with me? LOL
     
    Trollbait likes this.
  20. Blue-Adept

    Blue-Adept Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    244
    130
    0
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    DUBIT. look at it this way. If a smoker buys insurance at the company you work for you subsidize the smoker by paying more. This is a negative for you since you pay more. Some subsidies are a plus plus. No negative. Subsidized positive behavior benefit everyone. The Prius tax credit is a plus plus deal for all. $3750 federal is nothing. I generate more tax revenue for the federal government that my company pays as a consultant. The small tax credit that for the Prius and other EV's is nothing. You at most pay a penny a year

    Gas powered vehicle Manufacturing and oil industry are subsidized by the federal government though the tax code.

    Next thing. Don't bring in politics here since your may be suprized to find out who you alienate When you need help. If you want to talk politics stop over and have a beer.

    We need to move forward and not backward to the 1950's The Prius Prime and others EV's and partial EV's. To do that we need to jump start Ev's again. How about we end oil subsidies?

    Read this.

    What a Difference 100 Years Make: The Return of the Electric Car | Torque News


     
Loading...