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What happens on August 24th?

Discussion in 'EV (Electric Vehicle) Discussion' started by Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Jul 14, 2018.

  1. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    I've been reading that the patent on large automotive NiMH battery packs is set to expire on August 23rd.

    I'm curious if anyone has any ideas?
     
  2. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    Lithium Ion is lighter than NiMH, so I would expect little change where weight is a premium. NiMH is a safer battery, so entry level vehicles may expand it's use, and cheaper, so third world autos may expand as well.
     
  3. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    I get it that there's been a lot of progress in using Li-ion chemistry. From what I've read, the biggest problem with NiMH traction batteries was that Chevron might simply say "No" and refuse to produce them, even after they signed a commitment to do it.
     
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    no one makes li-on batteries in the whole world without chevron licensing?
     
  5. plug-it-in

    plug-it-in Active Member

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    I think you meant NiMh not li-ion.
     
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    yes, thanks!(y)
     
  7. plug-it-in

    plug-it-in Active Member

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    Confusing question. I am quite sure that Toyota makes their own NiMh traction batteries - maybe with the blessing (for a fee!) by Chevron. Once the patent expires Chevron can no longer claim ownership of the design. Anyone can make them.
    Yes, it is possible that some low end, low cost hybrids will use this chemistry, but in the long run some version (solid state?) of Li-Ion battery will take over. It has significantly better energy density/kg.
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    from what i have read in the past, toyota has only stuck with nimh for this long because they had a huge investment in them. we can certainly see that changing with gen 4.
     
  9. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    I'm sure there's always going to be a better battery chemistry coming, by one measure or another.

    What I'm focused on is the idea that NiMH has been around a while, and it is fairly well understood. They figured out how to make them big, how to make them safe, how to make them last a long time, how to reduce the cost of building them... probably 100 other questions too. And that's stuff that takes time to answer no matter which chemistry you're using. Lithium ion packs may have better density, but they have some odd trade-offs of their own, and it's been well proven that NiMH is "good enough" for automotive usage.

    So there are a lot of advantages in NiMH. And if the biggest remaining drawback to it has actually been license restrictions that are about to evaporate, that could have a pretty big impact on how the technology gets used going forward.

    I don't know if Toyota builds their own batteries under license, or buys them (license fees included) from another party.

    I wouldn't be shocked if the terms of the license had all kinds of seemingly arbitrary restrictions in it- individual size, number allowed per year.

    Shoot, I wouldn't be shocked if one of the restrictions was that any car containing one also had to have an ICE. Think about that. If I were Chevron, I'd want that in the contract.

    So the range of possible changes post-patent could be pretty big.
     
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    li-on is coming on pretty strong. working well in tesla, bolt, volt, pip, prime, pacifica, leaf, et al.
    not sure how well nimh would work in a plug in.

    toyota even put one in the two eco, must be a good reason.
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Toyota is probably the only car company paying less for NiMH than Li-ion, and they accomplished that by investing into the entire production chain starting with nickel mines. Nickel is rarer and more expensive than lithium. NiMH may have already reached their lowest production costs, while Li-ion is still improving.

    Chevron's patent isn't on the battery chemistry. It is on the use of a large format battery for plug in cars. Toyota and others specifically sized their NiMH batteries in hybrids to be below that. The patent expiration means that NiMH could be used in plug ins, but I think cost will prevent it. There is also the question of NiMH lifespan in a BEV. The chemistry lasts so long in hybrids, because the management systems baby them. Doing so in a BEV would mean a lot of extra weight that is effectively dead weight.

    The EV1 and other BEVs of that era had switched to NiMH, and it was a big improvement over lead acid. Some of them are still running around, but I have no idea how well the packs have aged. Most of them are in the mild climate of California, so data from them may not apply to other regions.

    BASF did have a press release saying that they saw potential on improving the NiMH battery. If they have made progress, expect announcements soon.
     
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  12. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    What happened when the patents lapsed on Sony's Betamax?
     
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  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Betamax actually stuck around in other markets after VHS won here. We were probably moving on to DVDs by the time either cassette's patents lasped.

    I think Li-ion has too much of a head start over NiMH for plug ins to be considered outside of niche cases. Perhaps there will be an advancement to makes it attractive for plug ins, but other battery technologies are coming to market too, like the solid state ones.
     
  14. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    anyone wana buy a bunch of video laser discs?
    Cheap? Yea - so glad I didn't get burned by that fly-by-night fad
     
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    august 24th came and went...
     
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  16. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

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    And the sun still came up this morning. ;)
     
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  17. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    wouldn't have minded a few clouds...
     
  18. LasVegasaurusRex

    LasVegasaurusRex Active Member

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    The primary reason you won't see NIMH EVs is low energy density compared to lithium. They just take up too much volume (space) in the car
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    We might see them in stationary storage.
     
  20. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    I guess the biggest thing that changed is the size & scale they're allowed to build. They still have the benefits of a long history working with them, a (presumably) mature manufacturing and recycling industry, the same physical limitations of the materials... but now they can go big where they couldn't before.

    I wonder if that will do anything for vehicles where space is less of a concern due to larger overall size? Pickup trucks? Construction vehicles?