What Happens When Your Volt or Ampera Battery Gets Old?

You repair or replace it.

 

Many Volts are being sold in CA and those cars will be covered by a 10 year and 150,000 mile battery warranty and the same battery design is used in all Volts sold everywhere. Once those limits are surpassed and significant numbers of cars begin needing battery replacements there will no doubt be services like ReInVolt that do for the Volt what they currently do for Prius.

Many Volts may live on without battery replacements beyond those limits but with reduced power or range. Even after the warranty period, the Volt battery pack will have more power and usable storage capacity than a new 2012 PiP.

 

Toyota has been making Prius for 10 years and we still don't know how long 'too old' is.

In 10 years Volt owners may still be as ill informed as today. That would be a good thing

When asked if he had ever seen Dallas Cowboys coach Tom Landry smile, Walt Garrison replied, "Nope. But I've only been here nine years." I hope the Volt owners are as unsure how long the battery lasts in 9 years.

 

Incredible how some people match their objectives.

I would make other statement instead:
Even after 10+ years development of the counterparts, the Volt "new" powerplant could not cope with minimum efficiency levels of a hybrid.

 

I'm confused by your "other statement". What is you are saying?
The Volt batteries will last 10+, or are you somehow saying its not sufficient for hybrid operation after 10 years?


After 10 years, I expect my volt to still be getting 40+ miles of EV (35+ in winter) per charge and providing me 300+MPG on a yearly basis, almost all of the gas being for trips > 100 miles. The warranty is 80% at 8 years, and companies design warranties so on average they are exceeded. Since I live in a mile climate and treat the car well I expect mine too last much longer than average. And even if I'm wrong and it looses range to say 75% of its current range, and I only get 30 miles, it means (If I'm still doing the same commute) my MPG expectations will drop to maybe 200MPG. No other current hybrid can come close.


Why am I optimistic. And I've talked with engineers that are testing the batteries, and understand both the technology and the testing. (My University has a battery testing lab that does work for GM). You'll may also fine the thread at How Does Long Term Battery Capacity Management Work? [Archive] - GM-Volt: Chevy Volt Forum interesting. In it Andrew Farah was reported as saying 15years is expected life in mild climate.

Its nice to see GM and others talking about long-term issues like battery reuse (rather than rapid recycle), but I'll be keeping mine for a long long time. In 20 years I expect mine to be a classic, with all original parts.

 

I got confused because the other poster came with a PiP comparison, clearly off topic.
Going the same path, why not talking about ICE effiency? LOL

 

ICE efficiency will not be impacted much by battery aging, though like a Prius the VOLT/Ampera does need the high-voltage battery to start the ICE. When the car gets old the ICE will not be that old so should not be that degraded. If Volt drivers are doing 70% EV (voltstats average), then when they hit 200,000 miles on the car they will have 60,000 miles on the ICE.. so it should still be well with in the range of miles for peak efficiency.

If the comments were meant to be an indirect attach on the Volt's efficiency compare to say a prius, then note that when you drive mostly on battery, then the ICE efficiency is a much smaller concern. To keep it on the thread topic, I'll add that even if the old battery degrades to provide only 30 miles per charge (I currently get 40) and the ICE degrades to 35 overall (its EPA is 37, I get 40-50) then for my 10,000 miles a year, I would have about 1700 miles on gas (mostly long trips), so I would expect to average 200MPG. at 35MPG_CS it would use 50 gallons of gas a year. At 50MPG_CS it would use 35 gallons. So the ICE efficiency impact is pretty small. If I could plug in at work (and in 10 years infrastructure should improve), then in 10,000 miles with a 30 mileEV battery, I would expect to need even less miles on gas as it would be only the long trips (estimated 1200 a year) at 35mpg_cs it would push the overall up to 300MPG.

 

What's going to happen to all of the batteries in wrecked Volts? It's not just a rhetorical question; surely there have been wrecked/total losses in the Volt fleet. Where are those cars going? I've wondered if wrecked cars with large packs would be repurchased by the automaker, but that has not been true for the Leaf.

Anyway, the point is, lithium batteries have a very long shelf life. Whether it be a single cell or an entire pack, salvage will be a primary source of replacement parts and packs -- just like with the Prius -- assuming that Chevy doesn't purchase all the wrecks to supply an internal reman program.

 

As far as I know all the crashed volts batteries were returned to GM (or at least tested by them) for analysis for saftey/design. I know people that have been trying to buy some (including at my Unv.. where they do testing) and so far no secondary ones have surfaces.

 

Although it may be true, Volt will be using it's 37 MPG gas engine more often with premium gas.

Will the battery pack still be able to provide 149hp then? If not, acceleration and top speed will suffer. The car will continue to weight 3,780 lbs.

The resale value would be another question.

 

I'm sure the same thing that happens to any car part from a wreck. Still good; it will get reused. Bad; it will be recycled. The only stuff that might go in the trash are the plastics(and I think the fancy plastics are less likely to be recyclable).

There are already laws covering disposal of automotive fluids and the 12volt battery. Traction batteries aren't going to end up in a land fill.

 

The battery does not support 149hp.. the motors provide the hp.

Even a highly degraded battery will support full power needed. The degradation of a li-ion battery limit its total storage capacity, but has only minimal impact on its voltage or amperage.


No one can predict resale, but since even at 200,000 miles, at 70% EVusage the ICE will have only 60,000 miles and a long life ahead of it it should be good. It will also depend on how well the rest of the car holds up.

It will also depend on how many cars can average 100MPG or better in 10 years. The prius resale is good in part because even now 40mpg is pretty good. A volt with a battery degraded to 25 miles will, with normal utility factors, still have an overall MPG better than a PiP.

 

Will also depend on the level of crash.. wonder what will happen from this one, where a airborn 70mph camery hit a volt in a driveway



In past accidents the batteries were relatively unharmed. This one will be interesting, especially since the camery (not the Volt) caught fire.
But since the volt did not catch fire, it may likely be that the battery is still intact.

 

Really? The PiP is what most people here would be familiar with as a point of reference or comparison.

The battery industry has a convention or standard practice of declaring that cells have reached "end of life" when their capacity has been reduced to 70% or 80% of the original value. Some people assume that the "less than 80%" implies that the batteries are no longer usable. However, the Volt starts off with 3.5 times the pack size of the PiP (which many find perfectly adequate) so even a 50% reduction after 15+ years does not necessarily imply the need for a battery replacement.

I think you are saying that "hybrid" implies some minimal level of efficiency and the Volt fails to meet that expectation. However, the Volt is either the same or more efficient running in hybrid mode on gasoline than several other hybrids, according to standardized tests such as those from EPA.

I've been unable to plugin during almost all of the last 2-3 weeks and have been getting 45 mpg in gas-only combined city/highway driving similar to what I averaged in my 2004 Prius. I haven't been doing anything more than using mountain mode while on the highway to regenerate battery charge for later city driving and keeping speeds below 60 mph most of the time.

 

Which other comparable hybrids give less MPG than CS Mode Volt?

And giving a 2004 Prius similar average is satisfatory in that driving? It may be ok for you. Agree. But from my POV, it should be better.
(Not to say a 2004 gives above 50MPG in that driving pattern, but I don't own one - yet!)

 

It will be fun to find out. The battery cells in the Volt are apparently rated for 10+ C output meaning they could support outputting over 160 kW when they are new although the Volt never draws more than around 110 kW. As the battery degrades over time it's power output will likely decline substantially although it appears unlikely that the rate of decline will exceed its rate of capacity loss.

I tend to wonder more about the resale value of conventional 25 mpg cars 15 years from now.

 

Here's a useful EPA comparison chart I've posted previously:

Code:

Gasoline 4 cylinder hybrids 40 mpg highway or less:

2012 Chevrolet Volt 1.4L (40)*
2012 Toyota Prius V 1.8L (40)
2012 Lexus CT 200h 1.8L (40)*
2012 Hyundai Sonata (40)
2012 Kia Optima (40)
2012 Toyota Camry (39)
2012 Honda CR-Z 1.5L (39)*
2012 Ford Fusion & Mercury Milan (36)
2012 Lexus HS 250h (34)*
2012 Ford Escape (31)

Gasoline 4 cylinder hybrids 37 mpg combined (city/highway) or less:
2012 Chevrolet Volt 1.4L (37)*
2012 Honda CR-Z 1.5L (37)*
2012 Hyundai Sonata (37)
2012 Kia Optima (37)
2012 Lexus HS 250h (35)*
2012 Ford Escape (32)

Gasoline 4 cylinder hybrids 35 mpg city or less:
2012 Chevrolet Volt 1.4L (35)*
2012 Honda CR-Z 1.5L (35)*
2012 Hyundai Sonata (35)
2012 Kia Optima (35)
2012 Lexus HS 250h (35)*
2012 Ford Escape (34)

* compact or 2-seater

The highway comparison is the most useful one given the Volt's EV/HV utility factor and typical owner driving pattern.

Of course most of us here always want better gas mileage but for the purposes of a relatively large battery plugin, I consider the Volt's gasoline efficiency to be adequate and it certainly meets or exceeds my notions of "hybrid" minimal efficiency.

 

And there are many more not in that list that are 6cyl as well (not sure why its missing some.. 4cyl). It was not stated what was considered comparable.. space, cost, engine size, comfortable level, tech level).

Code:

2013 Buick Regal eAssist 4 cyl, 2.4 L, Automatic (S6), Regular Gasoline
               25 City 29 Combined 36 Highway


2013 Buick LaCrosse eAssist 4 cyl, 2.4 L, Automatic (S6), Regular p
                25 City 29 Combined 36


2013 Chevrolet Malibu eAssist 4 cyl, 2.4 L, Automatic (S6), Regular 
		25 City 29 Combined  37 Highway

 2012 Lincoln MKZ Hybrid FWD 2.5 L, 4 cyl, Automatic Regular 
		 41 City 39 Combined 36


2013 Lexus GS 450h 6 cyl, 3.5 L, Auto(AV-S6), Premium Gasoline
		29 City  31 Combined 34

2012 Infiniti M35h 3.5 L, 6 cyl, Automatic (S7), Premium Gasoline
		 27 City 29 Combined 32

2013 Lexus GS 450h 3.5 L, 6 cyl, Auto(AV-S6), Premium 
		 29 City 31 Combined 34

2012 Mercedes-Benz S400 Hybrid 3.5 L, 6 cyl, Automatic Premium 
		 19 City 21 Combined 25

2012 Porsche Cayenne S Hybrid 3.0 L, 6 cyl, Automatic  Premium 
		 20 City 21 Combined 24

2012 BMW ActiveHybrid 7 4.4 L, 8 cyl, Automatic (S8), Premium 
		 17 City 20 Combined 24

2012 Lexus LS 600h L 5.0 L, 8 cyl, Auto(AV-S8), Premium 
		 19 City 20 Combined 23

 

You mean just like the ICE in most every car ?!? Wow! who'da thunk ! !