What I don't like about the Prius Prime

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by cproaudio, Mar 23, 2016.

  1. Vike

    Vike Active Member

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    I appreciate that Americans might not have thought the i-MiEV was mass-produced (as it sold here in laughably small numbers), but globally speaking it was. And while done in a far more compact package, the concept was the same as Tesla's - put the battery under the car, not in the trunk.
    [​IMG]
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    you're making it sound like the pip has a 2" rise in the hatch floor height, and that prime is only an inch higher.
     
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    When I bring up TNGA, it is the case for putting in a central battery tunnel, a la the Volt and EV1. Toyota ditched the middle rear seat for weight, why not make the most of that compromise, and save some more cargo space? It also moves the battery weight closer to the car's center and lower down for handling.

    I though the PiP didn't lose any space in comparison to the non-PHEV, aside from the spare tire and under floor area.

    As mentioned, a PHEV needs under floor space for ICE support systems. Exhaust and the catalytic converters are the main issue. They may not be big, but the heat they radiate needs to be considered when placing the battery. So a car car PHEV can only place a smaller battery under the floor, or has to move the ICE to the rear. SUVs and crossovers generally have more space underneath to play with for a battery.
     
  4. Mike Terrant

    Mike Terrant New Member

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    I have a huge family and I feel just 4 seats is the biggest issue.
     
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  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    okay, but will 5 seats hold a uge family?
     
  6. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    Unfortunately, Toyota doesn't make a Coaster Prime.

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    But they would sell you one of their FCEV buses.

    If you have a hydrogen station nearby.
     
  8. Felt

    Felt Senior Member

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    After reading this thread .... and all of the problems associated with battery size, weight, and space for a spare tire and passengers .... for the first time I am beginning to understand why Toyota is interested in hydrogen. But I cannot imagine that hydrogen will, at least in my lifetime, become an alternative fuel across the US. Maybe California, but not the US.

    Meanwhile, other manufacturers are developing new battery chemistry and systems to exploit advances in reducing size and weight while enlarging energy potential (I don't know that of my own knowledge, only repeating what I read on this and other forums)

    Another point: Is Toyota's development of TNGA a failure if it can't even accommodate the Prime without major structural modifications? It will remain to be seen, but the Ioniq just might be a "Prius killer" after all.
     
  9. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    To believe those claims, you have to dismiss the reality that other manufacturers are also rolling out hydrogen vehicles and that Toyota has done nothing to improve the chemistry they've been using in their own lithium batteries.

    We're not that naïve.


    To understand success, one must know the goals.

    Toyota has stated a target of 30,000 sales for the first year in this market.
     
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Hydrogen has the exact same problems. The Mirai is Camry sized on the outside and maybe Corolla sized on the side with just 4 seats too. Toyota could have saved some space using the Li-ion hybrid battery pack from the gen4 Prius instead of the NiMH one from the Camry hybrid. Any price difference between the two would be swallowed up by the price of the car. The hydrogen tanks would still be heavy and bulky, with a fuel cell stack that wouldn't fit under the hood with the motor.

    Toyota is also. They just seem to really want to wring their money's worth out of older technology; the base Corolla still has a four speed automatic transmission.

    TNGA wasn't going to eliminate such structural changes, but it should have reduced the cost of making them. Toyota chose not to make them. The reported reason is because of the extra weight, but cost was likely a factor, and the cost could also be more time needed for development.

    Toyota could have developed the Prime, and then based the Prius on that. Doing so meant the possibility that a Prime focused design would impinge upon the the Prius' versatility and efficiency.
     
  11. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    To quote a few paragraphs from the book titled, "The Prius That Shook The World". It talks about the development of the 1G Prius. A very interesting book for any Prius enthusiast.


    Yes, the Tesla Model 3 will have the battery under the floor.

    Yeah I forgot only the prototype had a 2" rise. The production PiP had a flat floor. I'll fix the post.

    Crap, you're right! Ok I'll fix the post right away. Thanks for checking!

    I think Toyota was focused on reducing cost so that more people can adopt the cars. Maybe they figured to let GM appeal to the people that originally were drawn to the Prius and focus on getting the technology mainstream. Keeping the same chassis design as the regular Gen 4 Prius saves on development cost. They don't have to redesign the chassis to accommodate a T-shaped battery. TNGA is about reducing costs across the range.

    Unless Toyota decides to put money aside into a EV chassis, I suspect future Toyota BEVs/PHEVs (the near future anyway) will be compromised as they will be using a chassis from a regular car.
     
  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    as we've been saying all along, cost is the great unknown. base starts at 25k before incentives? all is forgiven.;)
     
  13. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Doesn't the Gen 4 start at $24k? a $1k markup is highly unlikely.
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Yes, any changes to the platform will increase Toyota's cost, but it isn't like they aren't selling high margin vehicles like pick-ups and SUVs to subsidize the cost internally for those first couple of years.

    Or does Toyota only have visions for the future when they can get others to subsidize the cars at the beginning; FCEVs and hybrids?;)
     
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  15. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Only if you think battery technology will never improve and battery engineering is frozen. I just believe, because it's a Prius, they are experimenting with several technologies at a time on the platform designed just for that. The Prius LB really hit its stride with the 3rd generation so the 3rd generation plug-in Prius will probably be even better. Will there be a refresh sometime in a couple of years? Probably, particularly if it's just interior refresh because of a redesigned battery pack and packaging.



    Unsupervised!
     
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  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    wow, you're thinking same or lower?
     
  17. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    I'm going to predict starting MSRP on the Prime will be $34,100 before tax credits ($4502 federal, $1500 California).

    This will result in a base Prime in California costing as much as a Three Touring, which I predict will have a comparable equipment level (except no 17" wheels or Touring-specific suspension tuning, but that's not a big deal).

    Note that my prediction includes the California credits in their pricing logic - that's because, ultimately, this will be a compliance car, being sold in 50 states (but most likely nearly nonexistent outside of EV-friendly states) to mask that fact (much like the C-Max Energi).
     
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  18. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    What is the 2016 definition of "compliance car" ?
     
  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    well, like everything else, there will be more sold in cali. but pip had decent sales in the other states it was available, and prime will too.
     
  20. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    A car designed primarily with the goal of meeting legal mandates to sell EVs, rather than as a good car. Which is evident in some of the packaging compromises that Toyota made when designing the Prime, rather than redesigning the unibody to maintain most of the versatility of the Liftback.
     
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