What I don't like about the Prius Prime

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by cproaudio, Mar 23, 2016.

  1. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Toyota did retain *most* of the design!

    You still get the great new handling of the improved suspension.

    You still get the great emissions & efficiency from the hybrid system.

    You still get the same head & leg room of the hybrid model.

    You still get a cargo area much larger than competing sedans.

    Expecting no tradeoffs whatsoever is neither constructive nor realistic.
     
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  2. Felt

    Felt Senior Member

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    John1701a - I should enclose this with 'smiley faces'

    Your first 'point,' which I'm sure you meant to be a positive, is keeping *most* of the design. That is my single most objection.
    I'll accept your word for handling .... a few post back I mentioned I had no complaint with the old.
    I expect no less than improved fuel efficiency and emissions.
    Same for leg room, except I am not sure about the rear seat? Is there a console in the middle to preclude a 5th passenger?? And, apparently, there is less luggage space (higher floor) from the hatchback?? You compared to a sedan.
    But your comment about "no tradeoffs" and you mention specifically "construction" caught my interest. A much larger batter would seem to demand significant "trade-offs," and structural integrity has been the topic of discussion. I think another "trade-off" is loosing a passenger seat, and another is no spare tire.

    But I will agree .... I like the looks of the Prime more than the standard Prius. But I am in shock about the projected cost mentioned several post back.

    Just my opinion.
     
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  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    which are these 'competing sedans'?
     
  4. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Err, higher.
     
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  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    okay. so it's going to be expensive, but there are tax incentives. but the incentives are gonna run out some day, and the prime is going to be cheap compared to the competition. that's right, the future is prime!(y)
     
  6. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Yes, I would imagine that Toyota will price it right so that it's competitive without incentives.
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    If we are going by comparative passenger space, it would be sedans in the class with the Corolla. So the Cruze, Focus, Sentra, etc. If you don't want to block the view out the Prime's rear window, some of those sedans might have more space.

    If we accept that the battery is where most of the cost lies, the Prime has a larger battery than the Energi's by 1.2 kWh, and the Hyundai Sonata PHEV's battery is 1kWh larger. Then Toyota doesn't have the huge investment in Li-ion like they do in NiMH. So their battery costs are going to be the say as everybody else's.

    The Prime might be cheap compared to the Volt without incentives, but the rest of the competition has battery packs close to the size of the Prime. Which leaves the Prime about the same price as them.
     
  8. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That logic is clouded by audience identification. You are focused solely on the consumer perspective, which in itself is problematic. That's not the only barrier to overcome though. Another must be fulfilled to achieve sales growth.

    How profitable do you believe the other automakers platforms are? Prius has been around much longer, upgraded aggressively for COST reduction. The resulting PRICE will provide far more incentive for dealers & salespeople to actually carry & sell the car. That's absolutely vital to attract the other audience. Those other automakers don't have that much of an advantage.

    This is a major concern the Volt enthusiasts dismissed for years. They now realize how wrong it was to not acknowledge such a business fundamental. No matter how appealing a technology may be to prospective buyers, it won't be purchased in large numbers if it is difficult to acquire. Sales have suffered as a result.

    The plug-in owners group here addresses complaints routinely about how much of a problem is simply trying to find vehicles for purchase. The pig-headed individuals here who complained about Toyota halting he rollout of Prius PHV have grown silent as they learned of this incentive problem. It's not a just matter of the automaker producing & offering inventory. Dealers have to actually want to carry them on the lot. Salespeople must have the desire to show them to customers.

    That interest comes about when COST is reduced enough to earn the dealer a decent profit and the salesperson an appealing commission. That may mean PRICE doesn't come down much. But it should be easier to see how much more likely a purchase will be.
     
    #548 john1701a, Jun 25, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2016
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  9. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Here's the problem with Prime: we are not getting the design vision in the U.S., and that is, wireless solar recharging.

    ...see the recent threads...
    the Prime solar option (not available in USA) is a more powerful solar panel with small NiMH battery that (depending on how much sun you want to soak up) can significantly say 10-20% boost your EV miles.

    Running a car on sun to the car's own roof is certainly clean energy in my book, even if it is just a portion. Except for the fact we don't get the option in America (due apparently to USA roll-over crash regs) that is exciting. I think it helps explain why we have a feeling of emptiness on Prime...we are not getting the design vision.

    That solar recharging is basically what I want to do with a Plug-In (wireless, off-grid solar recharging) except my vision was to have panels on the garage roof. A "plug-in" with no plug and no connection to the grid...that's a powerful idea.
     
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    agreed. but that's not the problem.;) we don't even know what it will cost yet, or how it will hold up over time. or how much energy it will add in 'non prime' situations.
     
  11. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Why is starting rollout in Japan a problem?

    That is a far more receptive market and we'll be able to reap the benefit of upgrade when we finally get the option.

    Don't forget how much of a draw mid-cycle updates can be.
     
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  12. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ...my plan (on cost) was always to get a low miles 3-yrs old off lease, in part due to extreme high car taxes in northern Virginia. That's why I kept hoping they'd start selling Prime ASAP. But now I see my vision is the solar version (especially if I can hack into it with my own solar panel power), so I am talking what? 6 years hence and that's being optimistic.
     
    #552 wjtracy, Jun 25, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2016
  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    if you keep moving the goalpost, you'll never get there.:p why not buy a 4 year old pip for cheap money, learn the in's and out's of ev charging and driving, and keep it until the perfect car comes along.
     
  14. Felt

    Felt Senior Member

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    Every writer and reader of this thread would endorse free energy from the sun. Unfortunately, the technology is just not there yet.

    "Every little bit helps" is a true sentiment. But here in the southwest, an area that is perfect for solar energy with most days having cloudless skies, a car sitting in the summer sun all day becomes too hot to get into. 130 -140 degrees. Consequently, we all park in the shade whenever possible. So, you get a tiny about of energy from a collector, but must expend enormous energy to cool the interior so you can get into the car.
    I believe at this stage of development, solar panels on a cars roof is nothing more than a PR gimmick. Personally, I'd much rather have a light, white reflective roof than a dark, absorbing solar panel.

    A positive side note: Advocates of solar power should visit the solar farm west of Las Vegas. It is enormous, 100's of acres. The energy is focused and concentrated on a tower and the light is so bright it is like looking at a welder's flame. You can't look at it.

    My neighbor installed a modest 8 panel array on his house roof. He was promised that he would sell energy back to the power company. He tells me he is unable to see any difference in his energy consumption.

    24 years ago I administered a very large solar demonstration projects atop multiple building on a single campus. The calculated pay-back time was 35 years. Two years ago the entire array was removed and scrapped.
    There is potential in solar energy, but we are not there yet. That's my opinion.
     
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  15. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    24 years ago, solar technology was nowhere near where it is today, and payback periods are often much shorter, especially (in commercial scale) with things like ice storage air conditioning.

    How big in kW is your neighbor's array, how's the net metering program in your area, and have any loads been shifted towards the solar peak?
     
  16. mozdzen

    mozdzen Active Member

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    Solar charging from panels on a car is something that is a bad idea. If your car is in the sun all day long, you might be able to get enough electricity to drive 5 more miles. However, the car might have to run the battery cooling equipment and the Cd might go up, completely negating any extra miles if you were driving the car while soaking up sun, in fact the panels might even cost you miles.

    If you wait for wireless charging, you will get an EV 10 yrs after the rest of us are enjoying EV driving, if it ever comes to market.
     
  17. Jan Treur

    Jan Treur Active Member

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    Payback time here is nowadays usually 5 to 6 years, and when the situation is less ideal, up to 10 years (and the production is guaranteed for 25 years). Much has been improved in recent years. But the pricing of electricity differs a lot between different countries and states, and payback time directly relates to these prices, so comparison is not that easy.
     
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  18. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    also, government incentives.
     
  19. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    I might get a PiP especially if I thought I could do a wireless recharging revamp. I see PiP is not on the list for some of the vendors that do the wireless charging mod.

    Recall, Toyota had said a few years back the Prime would come with the wireless. So there again is part of why Prime misses what I was thinking we were going to get, not to mention nobody said 4 seats etc. I'd rather have PiP1 w/ 4 Kwhr battery if I could do wireless, especially if I thought I could do solar-powered wireless.

    Back on the Prime survey I was the only one who said I missed the wireless.
     
  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i remember them saying that. maybe cost or efficiency wise, they aren't ready for prime time.

    i wonder if you owned a plug in, if you would feel as strongly about wireless charging. have you read any user reviews?
     
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